Two Brothers, One Calling: The Steensma Story

Kurt and Brian Steensma own and operate Steensma Lawn and Power Equipment. They join the podcast to discuss their experiences working together as brothers, becoming small business owners at an early age, and how they strive to lead in way that honors Christ. 

Kurts LinkedIn

Brians email - brian@steensmalawn.com

Kurts email - kurt@steensmalawn.com

Extreme Ownership book 

The E-Myth 

Excellence Wins

Transcript

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Jason 0:02

Happy New Year and welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast. I'm your host, Jason Woodard. On today's show, for the first time ever, you'll hear from two guests, Brian and Kurt Enema Own and Operate Enema, lawn and Power Equipment. This is a business with three stores across West Michigan and Kurt and Brian worked together to operate it. You'll hear how they came to be small business owners, how they relied on mentors to help them along and how they strive to honor Christ in their work. We also discussed the benefits and challenges of running a family business. so now let's meet these brothers. Well, for the first time ever, I have two guests to introduce today. I'm super excited to introduce, Kurt and Brian Ste. Sma, these gentlemen and brothers and the Lord operate, a business here actually in my area. So guys, thank you for coming on the show, man. I'm super excited about, our interview.

Brian 1:02

It's a pleasure.

Jason 1:03

Yeah.

Kurt 1:04

be here, Jason. Thanks for the opportunity.

Jason 1:06

the last name is also the name of the business. tell me, Kurt, let's start with you. Tell me a little bit about your background. how did the Lord take you from high school on to where you're at now and maybe a little bit about the history of the business. And Brian, we will ask the same from you.

Kurt 1:20

Yeah. Well, I went through Christian schools as a kid all the way through high school and got to the end of my high school days and didn't really have anything in mind. I applied to a couple of colleges, but nothing really struck my fancy. I didn't love studying in high school, so I went right to work. Graduated high school a week after that. Went into commercial construction as a carpenter That was a Horrible job. You know, a nice Christian kid and conservative and thrown into the union. Carpentry was an eye-opening experience to say the

Jason 1:56

You learned a lot of new phrases you hadn't been familiar

Kurt 1:58

A lot. Everything. I mean, man, it was, it was, it was an interesting time. So that didn't last real long. Ended up going into another family owned firm. in Town, and a wonderful experience. I did that for, a couple, three years or so, and then this opportunity came To buy the business that were in the John Deere dealership and other outdoor power equipment stuff. our dad and uncle owned businesses, in the same industry. Outdoor power equipment in the seventies and eighties. They had sold out in 1989 and company changed hands a few times and then. it came up again for purchase in 99. So, our dads were interested in helping us out, thankfully. 'cause we couldn't have done it without 'em. So we ended up being able to buy the business. April 1st, 2000, we started Deans loan in Power and it's been a ride,

Jason 2:49

25 years now, right?

Kurt 2:51

25 years this year. Yeah, April 1st. It was 25 years. So. I pretty proud of that, you know, been super blessed along the way. and certainly wouldn't be here today without the help of our dad and uncle at the time. and our cousin Tim too is of course enormous in the business as well,

Jason 3:08

So Brian, what about your background? What took you from kind of post school to coming alongside your brother to buy this business?

Brian 3:16

Yeah, I did go to college. I don't know that I really liked studying a lot more than Kurt, but, I ended up gonna to University of Michigan, and was actually interested in going to, federal enforcement. was kind of where I landed

Jason 3:28

Okay.

Brian 3:28

and it was the direction I was headed, I thought anyways, after graduation and was in local law enforcement. actually with the university of Michigan's DPS and was realizing that, I didn't, I guess maybe I'm Type A enough where, I didn't like a policy. I wanted to be able to change it and not being

Jason 3:48

not enforce it.

Brian 3:49

Yeah. It really bothered me. So, we were, you know, still was still pursuing federal enforcement. I was actually in the second round of interviews. With a secret service. and that was in, 99. And yeah, this opportunity came along and, you know, our dads were, you know, not really interested in buying the business themselves, but thought, well, maybe our boys want to do it,

Jason 4:08

Sounds like it.

Brian 4:09

you know, when the opportunity hit. And, you know, we knew that we, had some terrific mentors in our, dads, Burt and, Gary, that I think gave us the nudge we needed to take the leap.

Jason 4:20

So, Kurt, you're at the time you're working in a locally owned business here around the area, right? And Brian, you're pursuing a law enforcement, like federal level

Brian 4:30

Correct? Yep.

Jason 4:31

so your dad and uncle, do they get a call from the business owner at that time? Just 'cause they had done it before and said, Hey, we want to get out. You guys interested? Is that kind of how that first started? That communication.

Brian 4:42

Correct.

Jason 4:43

And then a cousin. Right. When you first started it was you two and a cousin.

Brian 4:46

Yeah. My cousin Tim and I actually had run a painting company called Cousins Painting, through college and, still got the business card in the t-shirt. Tim and I knew we could work well together, my brother Kurt and I, by the grace of God. Always gotten along reasonably well. that was kind of how it happened.

Jason 5:03

Did it take a lot of convincing from your dad and uncle or like twisting arms or, that had to be a weird phone call, right? You're pursuing, especially Brian, I mean, you're pursuing something completely different. They're like, Hey, I have an idea. How long did it, was it long discussions, weeks, months, or was it pretty quick?

Brian 5:20

my record.

Kurt 5:20

I don't remember a long discussion. A lot of debate. I think it probably took more convincing for our dad and uncle to be like, boy, is this a good decision or not? Because they were definitely not interested. But they're like, well, you know, maybe the boys are crazy enough to have a go and we'll just help 'em out a little bit and.

Brian 5:38

Yeah. If I remember, you know, so I believe, my recollection anyways is that. the former owner contacted our dad, Gary directly and, asked him if he wanted to get back in, and that was a real easy answer. and then my dad called, I remember he called me out in Ann Arbor, and just said, Hey, you know, this conversation happened. just thought I'd mention it to you. type of deal. our dads, if anything, tried to, I think, downplay the opportunity of it. They were certainly not hard selling it.

Jason 6:10

Yeah.

Kurt 6:11

Yeah.

Brian 6:12

I think it was more, we're like, wow, business, I wasn't enamored with the direction, I was headed, as nearly as much as I thought I was

Jason 6:19

Yeah. Okay.

Brian 6:20

You know, like say that the Type A was starting to come out and, for me anyway. And so, you know, it was like, well that's interesting and you know, obviously we, we talked it over, prayed about it, and

Jason 6:31

Made

Brian 6:31

here we are.

Jason 6:32

So when you guys bought it, it was a single store. Talk a little bit about what it was and where you're at now, size wise, and scope.

Kurt 6:40

Yeah, single store operation in Kalamazoo at that time. and I think there was what, maybe eight employees or thereabouts, something along those lines.

Brian 6:50

Yeah, I'd say there was probably eight, eight to 10

Kurt 6:53

And then there was five of us, three kids and our dad. So there was, a dozen people or so. it took off like a rocket. in spite of us, it took off like a rocket. we Worked our tails off, which is a good sport for a young

Jason 7:05

Yeah.

Kurt 7:06

keeps you out of trouble a little bit, a little bit less trouble. Anyway, cause I was, I was 20 and, well you were 22, right? Right.

Brian 7:15

Yeah,

Kurt 7:15

So we were,

Brian 7:16

I had just turned 23,

Jason 7:19

Yeah.

Brian 7:19

Because I,

Kurt 7:20

'cause I was a couple of weeks away from 21, so that happened. 2006, we bought the Plainwell location, so expanded to two and then, I don't know, oh eight or oh nine, I think we bought the generator, company. And then in,

Brian 7:36

Generator.

Kurt 7:36

we bought the Battle Creek store. So three physical locations now and, in the generator,

Jason 7:42

Yeah. So What brands do you guys sell? I mean, I know, but just for listeners, Generac generators, right. But then on the

Brian 7:48

Yeah, we started out with John Deere and, Toro and just to walk behind products. you know, we added up, we've got, Xmark, steel Cub Cadet, Honda and Wright as well now. So, in the lawn and garden and the commercial products, Western snow plows.

Jason 8:08

Okay.

Brian 8:09

yeah, the Generac, generators are a, big part of it as well.

Jason 8:12

How many people work for the company

Kurt 8:14

I'm gonna buy 80 to 85 right now.

Jason 8:17

Been a lot of growing pains, I would imagine, huh? no, no. It just came naturally.

Brian 8:21

Perfect. Perfect all the time.

Kurt 8:24

Not a bump. It's been, geez,

Jason 8:26

What would you guys say, guys to ask? Each of you has been maybe the, you know, one of the biggest challenges through that 25 year journey, do you think for yourselves in leading the business?

Kurt 8:37

Really, that's not, it's just, leadership, I think for just learning how to lead.

Jason 8:43

Yeah.

Kurt 8:44

you know, again, had great mentors and our dad and, and uncle, but one thing dad said, and I remember, in those early conversations, he just said, Hey, just don't work as hard as I did. he was gone a lot. I mean, it was us and mom at home when we were little guys. And so that's just work harder, right? and put in the hours and you make it happen. which is one way to do it, but also, gets you burned out and it's not the most effective way to grow if you wanted to grow multi-site.

Jason 9:10

yeah, for sure.

Kurt 9:12

so. I think it was just, yeah, learning how to lead, because I was at 2021. I didn't know squat really, you know,

Jason 9:22

Oh yeah, we all did,

Kurt 9:23

You know, I mean, at that age, you're like, I got this. And it was, man, that was a lot of, ill place confidence there for me, for sure. Work.

Jason 9:30

Kurt, Where did you go for resources to help learn, to go from being a 20, 21-year-old entrepreneur to, you know, a leader that the scope of having multi-sites and like, where was it? What resources was it? Your mentors, your dad, your books.

Kurt 9:45

yeah, I mean, early on it was dad for sure, and then thankfully had a friend reach out. I think it was right after we bought Plainwell, so oh 6 0 7. And he had just gone through the EOS process,

Jason 9:58

Yeah.

Kurt 9:59

which is hugely popular now. And so we had, you know, the 90 minute deal and Don Tinney was one of the co-founders of, of EOS and just, and is amazing, just amazing. so we signed on with him at that time and he was. Enormously beneficial in helping us get into that process. And then also introducing us in, you know, me anyway, for into these, you know, all these different leadership books and, you know, all the home run hitters, you know, diving into that and then really being like, wow, this was crazy. Like, you know, went so long without having this. And then it was just finding more and more guys that have been there, done that. And so, yeah.

Jason 10:41

Good. What do you look back and think was biggest one of the biggest challenges for you through that journey?

Brian 10:46

In my opinion, one of the most difficult things in most businesses is just learning how to interact with people,

Jason 10:52

Yeah.

Brian 10:52

know, both from a leadership standpoint with, you know, learning how to lead a team and, be the front of the company. You know, not just because our name's on the building, but because, they wanna follow us, right? learning how to be an effective leader, I think is. was probably one of the biggest things. And obviously also, in retail we're interacting with the public every day, And, learning how to do that in an effective way, in an upbeat way, even in situations that aren't good,

Jason 11:17

Yep.

Brian 11:17

being, willing to stand in the line of fire, as much as possible. both between the public and your team, as well as just being willing to take responsibility for it. So, that was certainly not my natural bend. I love to argue, and debate and things of that nature. So, that was, absolutely the biggest learning curve, for me as well was just learning how to interact with people. specifically to lead a team and, take responsibility.

Jason 11:42

well, dealing with, you know, my, my son both my, my son owns a business. they, you know, working with the general public, it's an auto repair shop and my wife works there. She's. Pretty much customer facing. And I was pretty sure that's not something I would wanna do. And now that I get stories over the dinner table, I'm very sure that's not something, yeah, I'm in a business to business and I have been my entire career, so there's other challenges there. But yeah, that says a lot about, just having humility and learning to deal with people that are, I'm sure at times, unreasonably, angry or, have unreasonable expectations.

Brian 12:15

always right?

Jason 12:16

yeah, that's a sanctifying process. I am sure

Brian 12:20

Yeah,

Jason 12:21

that.

Kurt 12:21

It's learned humility, that's for sure. Because I think back and. Boy, I just made, really bad choices back then. Like, I'm right and you're wrong. And that's just the way it is. And it's like, it doesn't matter. It's not about right.

Brian 12:36

Yeah.

Kurt 12:36

You don't, it doesn't matter. and that's really, that for me had to be, had to be beat in pretty

Jason 12:41

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. that's the priority is being right. And I think that's pretty common for a lot of young men with some drive and ambition.

Brian 12:49

absolutely blessed with an amazing team at the beginning.

Jason 12:51

good.

Brian 12:52

I mean, number one there was us, and then number two, there was the hours. 'cause everybody was, I mean, these guys jumped in the trenches and just worked all the time at the beginning.

Jason 13:02

committed.

Brian 13:02

we're just nonstop.

Jason 13:04

Yeah. So, Brian, tell me about your faith journey. What's that look like?

Brian 13:09

Oh boy. well, you know, born and raised in a believing household, which was fantastic. when it came time to choose a college, I chose the University of Michigan, which is a, just a bastion of faith.

Jason 13:20

Yeah, that's right.

Brian 13:22

I intentionally did, I wanted to go to a public university. and, you know, just kind of stand on my own two feet, you know, and kind of start my own, faith journey, you know, and make, a hundred million mistakes in college and since as well, you know, but did help you mean, I think step out a little bit and you know, just kind of figure out and define, what my walk was gonna look like, You know, I was being schooled for it to look like, you know, so for me that was a big step. and then, getting into business, I remember early on, I think it was dad that, talked about, our business can be our mission field. And, you know, so we've tried to, lead by example in that world. I personally as much talking and selling as I do on a day-to-day basis, I've never been an evangelist by any means. right or wrong, it's never been, a bend of mine. we do try to, lead by example and, use our platform, to demonstrate, What it looks like to follow Jesus.

Jason 14:16

Yeah, how do you, so how do you do that in practical ways? What are some examples of how you guys, or how you try to do that? And then Kurt, I'll be coming around to you,

Brian 14:24

Yeah. You know, again, so for me, I, you know, everybody knows where we stand, from a religious standpoint. But it works us, we open every meeting. And in a lot of, one-on-one meetings even too, we open 'em all with prayer. and, every, event that we do, as an organization, we try to do that as well. I think, modeling, humility, modeling integrity, we've always said to all of our guys, we will never, ever ask you to do anything, that's questionable. you know, morally or from an integrity standpoint ever. you know, we wanna be able to stand, before our creator someday and, and, be proud of the organization and proud of our team and, that be able to, say we did the best we could,

Jason 15:05

You were faithful.

Brian 15:06

Yeah, exactly. I think, another part is just using our business to support and work in the community. be generous, and, and support organizations that are, you know, faith. We, we support a lot of organizations, not just faith-based ones, but obviously, faith-based ones. that's probably the biggest part. if we get the opportunity to have a conversation with an employee, then, we take that opportunity as well. but that's usually gotta be initiated. We don't wanna, you know, we, we've, at least I personally have never wanted to take a, hard line on, preaching. I would say.

Jason 15:37

Yeah.

Brian 15:37

I've tried to pay attention, you know, be aware of the fact that we're in a position of authority. and we don't

Jason 15:43

Yep.

Brian 15:43

I don't wanna swing that hammer, you know, or even, you know, even be perceived as swinging that hammer you.

Jason 15:48

I don't know if you guys have ever heard of the book by Jordan Rainer called The Sacredness of Secular Work, but if you haven't highly recommend, it talks a lot about that, you know, that the vast majority of the time we're at work, whether what whatever we're doing is, you know, we're not. Sharing the gospel. We absolutely look for those opportunities when they come, like you said Brian, but you know, the vast majority of the time we're just working prayerfully in a way that's faithful, that we're being faithful in our work and how we work and how we interact with people. So highly recommend. He was actually on my, came and was on my podcast a couple years ago, but excellent, excellent book. So really recommend that. Kurt, what about your faith journey? I know you guys are obviously brought up in the same home, Similar there, or like, what'd that look like for you?

Kurt 16:31

Yeah, similar, you know, wooden pew, CRC raised, so conservative to say the least. like I said earlier, I think Christian schools and. you know, incredibly blessed with, just beautiful models of a Christian marriage between our mom and dad and, both in their own ways. I think just enormously blessed for sure. after high school, went right to work, but stayed involved with a lot of my friends and so on in a ministry at Western Michigan University, that was launched through our youth pastor. And that for me was pretty pivotal. it was where I got to start to step out into my own and started leading some Bible studies and so on, on campus. And, so that for me was. Kind of my stepping out in my own faith versus, riding the coattails of our parents.

Jason 17:19

Yep.

Kurt 17:20

I'd echo everything Brian said for sure, and just trying to, you know, Hey, what'd you do over the weekend? Well, I went to church, like we do, everybody that we work with knows, our position as far as our walk with Jesus. in spite of not walking it perfectly,

Brian 17:34

Yeah.

Kurt 17:35

try to model that as best we can And offer, you know, bring others along. You know, every Easter or Christmas, I try to send out an email and invite anybody to church if they want. If they don't have a place to come, please come. and a lot of the organizations we support, we offer surveys for our employees a couple of year and try to leak out some of those opportunities for employees to serve, at. These organizations that we support, which are, largely faith-based. Not all, and yeah, that, trying to walk out that example

Jason 18:03

your brother talked about how your dad saw business as emissions, and I think, that's pretty incredible for that generation. I don't think that was as common as it's gotten. Kurt, do you recall things that you saw him do as a business owner? where you just saw, hey, he's being faithful to live that out at work that maybe you try to do things you saw him do back then as a teenager or a kid.

Kurt 18:28

Well, I don't know that I have any specific examples, but I know

Jason 18:33

I.

Kurt 18:33

all of his employees for sure knew exactly where he stood. And I think even though. what's been interesting is having a lot of conversations with his old employees

Jason 18:43

Yeah.

Kurt 18:43

They're like, but he was the best boss I ever had because they knew, he cared. he was gonna hold him accountable to doing a great job, to a very high standard, which is nothing wrong with that, But they always knew that he cared. And if they needed anything,

Jason 18:57

Yeah.

Kurt 18:58

I've had those conversations with, a number of, I dunno, at least a handful of employees. And it's a very similar tone. And it's like, awesome. I'm good with that. Like, that's a, that's the good stuff, you know.

Jason 19:09

Well, I think that's it. It's funny I just mentioned that book, but one of the things that, he talks about in that book is how excellence in our work is a foundation for any evangelism that comes. Whereas if, sloppiness, it's not, people don't respect that. also coming with that balance of yes, there's an expectation, a high expectation of myself and others. But there's also grace and empathy. when something goes sideways in somebody's family or they need some grace and understanding that we come alongside them in that. So I think that's good. Kurt, tell me a little bit about your spiritual disciplines. Like how do you stay sharp with the Lord? How do you grow in grace? What do those things look like?

Kurt 19:47

Boy, I could do a lot better. I spent some time every morning, you know, whether it's devotional or, you know, I think last year I did the Bible in a year. so, and that was actually, I think the first time I've gone like, cover to cover on the Bible or work through the one year plan, you know? so try every morning to start with that. for me, I spend some time in nonprofits that had been on a couple of boards alone, rolling off now, and for me that was a really. Good way for me to, express my faith and work it out a little bit. not, works based salvation, but just a practical application for me to be like, okay, this is how I do it. I struggle, frankly. Sitting, I'm a high execution

Jason 20:30

Yeah.

Kurt 20:31

you know, my strengths finder all line up in this,

Jason 20:34

Yep.

Kurt 20:35

seven of the top 10 I think are execution. And so I do struggle to just sit and not do and just sit with the Lord. that's hard for me. I'd like to do better at that. This, you know, a new season. I can, I can do better at this and get up 10 minutes earlier. Focus,

Jason 20:49

Yeah.

Kurt 20:49

how can I focus and just hear from the Lord versus just read and talk, you know, and, read and pray.

Brian 20:57

Yeah,

Jason 20:57

How about you, Brian? What's that look like for you?

Brian 20:59

yeah. similar, can always do better. Right.

Jason 21:02

always.

Brian 21:03

I'm an early riser, so I usually, like to get up, real early and, spend, some time every morning in the word, I also run A gym out of my home. I've got some brothers that come almost every morning we'll usually work out in the morning and then do a, a bowel study, you know, for 15, 20 minutes real quick, after the workout. I've enjoyed that a lot. you know, do, You know, obviously, active attender, you know, at a, at a church and, sit on the, elder board have for a number of years. and that's like iron sharpening iron, of course. you get to have, a lot of, conversations, around, spiritual issues that I know I wouldn't run into otherwise, and that usually sends me down a rabbit hole, of research, and reading which is all good stuff too.

Jason 21:46

Yeah.

Brian 21:46

that's all great stuff. So, yeah, that's been, I teach youth group, at our church as well, and so I get to have some interesting conversations with young men and women,

Jason 21:55

Teenagers.

Brian 21:55

I tried that. It's not gonna go that, you know, you know, trust me, trust the old guy, you know, but, they don't and I wouldn't have either,

Jason 22:03

Yep.

Brian 22:04

but you know, at least it's something, a conversation to have.

Jason 22:06

Yeah.

Brian 22:07

Those are probably my primary areas, you know, for

Jason 22:09

Do you guys go to church at the same church or different ones?

Brian 22:12

Different.

Kurt 22:13

Different churches.

Jason 22:14

so in the operations of the business are, is it just the two of you that lead it? what's that structure look like in the organization?

Brian 22:23

So, as an under a good EOS model, I'm the visionary, you know, I've always been in the sales marketing side of the business. And, but I couldn't, operate my way out of a paper bag. that's where Kurt's super, super awesome executor. and, so yeah, that's kind of the two official roles that we sit in now. we have a, a third in command. once Tim left, we hired a third in command that's currently running a site right now, but is gonna become our. implementer, you know, so kind of help, roll out the, you know, I'll come up with a hair-brained idea, filter it out, and then hopefully, come up with an execution plan and then, it will be implemented. But, not sitting in that role yet. That was the original hire concept. And then, you know, we've, had to, you know, had to move her into a, a site leadership position. Yep.

Jason 23:14

That's good experience though,

Brian 23:15

It's, you know, yeah. we're not still a hundred percent sure we're doing this whole thing, right. But once Tim left, we had three locations and only two steam smiths, So then we're like, okay, well I guess we're gonna need a site leader.

Jason 23:27

yeah,

Brian 23:28

And, you know, kind of rewrote the accountability chart and, put site leaders, in position in each location. Kurt and I are, trying to lead the leaders now, and leaders execute, on a day-to-day basis. and thankfully our employees are just so awesome. they're super patient. we've followed this up, a half a dozen different ways and, you know, are still learning, I don't think we have it figured out. but, like I say, through the grace of God and great employees, we're continuing to operate.

Jason 23:51

Yeah, that I was surprised. Kurt, you said if I, if I heard you right, like 2006, you guys. Started looking at EOSI.

Brian 24:01

yeah, it was, it was early in, oh yeah, I think it was early in oh six because we, we had, we knew we were buying. Was it early in oh six? 'cause we had, we already bought Conley's or we knew we were buying Conley's.

Kurt 24:12

I think we had bought it and realized pretty quickly we're like, we're not,

Brian 24:17

Yeah.

Kurt 24:18

we don't have the tools in our toolbox to do this well, and so I think it was, it might have been in its infancy,

Jason 24:25

Yeah. Well, I'm surprised that I just learned about EOS as a formal thing in the last two or three years. Now I've been an operations guy for 25 years, so as I learned about EOS, I'm like, yeah, those are all the tools that I learned in manufacturing, operations, leadership, and all that. So I think it's great that someone. Put that together for entrepreneurs to be able to take and run with. I think it's really great and it's a good system. So I did not realize it had been around almost 20 years. One of the gentlemen I had on the podcast who's a brother and the Lord, we actually both worked at Stryker for a while. Then we were at the same church for a while, but he now is a, EOS implementer. So he's doing that, I think, pretty significant chunk of his time and he is an entrepreneur, but it's been good to see. See him take off with that. So If there's people out there who are not familiar with EOS and they're running a small business, can you guys talk just a little bit about what it is and how they might like implement or at least learn about it? What would you recommend? Because I think that's important.

Kurt 25:24

Yeah, we, so we don't follow it perfectly. Let's get that outta the way. So way back in the day, and I'm, I'm just gonna assume it's evolved like everything has and really should over the last, you know, 15, 20 years. but it's a, it is just a, a structure.

Jason 25:38

Yep.

Kurt 25:39

That you can operate within and you can move those bones around a little bit to whatever business you're in. But you know, the foundations of good businesses and a good operations are pretty similar, right? So depending in spite of what business that you're in. I think they borrowed a lot of just. Great tools and ideas from a lot of the, great books and leadership styles and operational styles, and kind of pull them together into a really easily digestible format that you can, Put a lot of businesses within that framework. So I, for me, I think that's the, and you know, e os is entrepreneurial operating Systems. It's all over the internet now. It's super popular. I mean, there're in tons of different countries so it, from when we started, it's blown up and rightfully so. I think it's a great system. And you know, there's books out there Traction and

Jason 26:36

yeah.

Kurt 26:37

other ones,

Jason 26:37

I remember years ago I read a book as I was in an MBA program. we read a book called the E-Myth, and it just talked about some of the challenges of entrepreneurs being that, and I've watched it with my grandfather was a business owner. My dad. Was a business owner, skip me, and then my oldest son is a business owner. So I don't know what happened, but that's

Kurt 26:56

you're the smartest one of the bunch.

Jason 26:58

I don't know. I've never felt bold enough to go out and do it. But, you know, I've watched my son who's a good mechanic, and that's what he came up under. And then he had a dream though, to own his own business someday. And so. It's been interesting to watch him go through what I read in the E-Myth happen so often to entrepreneurs that, you know, they're, whatever it is, they're a good baker, they're a good mechanic, they're a good this, and then they start a business and they don't know how to run the business or you know, they don't have all those skill sets like nobody does. And so, you know, now he's, he's in three, four years in now and it's been really cool to see him get. You know, a small team around him that have those other strengths. And now it's even become a, you know, my youngest son's in it. My wife's in it, and then he is got some other guys that work for him. But you know, now he's able to focus on what he's very good at and passionate and skilled at. And, you know, my wife's, you know, she's customer facing and scheduling and organized and doing the books and good at all that, so it's, it's, it's neat to think to, I wanted to talk about what roles you guys fill, so it's pretty cool that you know, how the Lord's gifted you guys differently has fit in to be able to. To run that business. what are some of the challenges you guys have had being in a family business that are unique, you think, to a family business versus not?

Kurt 28:15

for me, I think some of it is, holding each other accountable. Brian said it earlier, we've thankfully. Really get along really, really well and almost always have. So we don't have a lot of baked in tension necessarily. our families get along well also, which is just a blessing, right? we have had some absolute knockdown, drag out, discussions that have gotten heated, good debate, but been able to walk away, frustrated from the table. And then come back the next day and be like, okay, what are we doing? let's pick a direction and go, and then get in line and stand shoulder to shoulder in front of our teams and be like, this is the direction we're going. We decided together. and not throwing each other under the bus. I've seen it that way. But I think, you know, holding each other accountable, not because we're afraid to have a hard conversation, but it's just. I know Brian, I know his heart. I know he's super, invested obviously in the business and the success of it, and he didn't get his, couple of rocks done for that quarter or so. He'll get him next

Jason 29:14

yeah,

Kurt 29:14

I am sure his excuse is valid versus being like, no, why not? You know? so I mean that, that's my angle. I don't know. Brian, what do you think?

Brian 29:23

No, I would actually agree with that. Again, accountability I think has always been the toughest part. and I think part of it's, 'cause, you know, how dare I call my brother out for not getting that thing done when he can clearly see I didn't get my thing done over here

Jason 29:36

Right,

Brian 29:36

how do I, talk about the pot calling the kettle black, right?

Jason 29:39

Right.

Brian 29:40

you know, he knows me as good as about anybody on the planet. So, you know, how can I call out a flaw when I'm full of him? Right. and I think too, like it's tough to, I genuinely love my brother and I gotta see him outside of work as well as inside of work. So, you know, I don't wanna, you know, damage a relationship too much or anything. But, so I would say that, at the same time, like, yeah, we. the fact that we are opposites means we don't agree on a lot of things, And, we have some, very sporty conversations, but at the end of the day, I think we make better decisions because we come at it from two very different angles, I, I tend to be the optimist and Kurt loves to flip the rock over and look at all the ugly stuff underneath it. And, you know, so with, you know, I think the, between the two of us, we make some good decisions, you know, and Tim was the same way, you know, Tim, our partner, you know, as a business partner for the first 21 years, and, you know, he was, you know, he, he was definitely loved to tear things apart and, you know, and look at every little piece of it, So, the three of us made A lot of good choices that I never would've made by myself.

Jason 30:39

On your own.

Brian 30:40

Oh, for sure.

Jason 30:41

Well, I will say this, that empathy piece you guys talk about as someone who works in a family business. I shared this before. the business I run. And working as they're on the fourth generation family business. And just recently, spending some time with, the owners, doing some board review things, I was reminded of how much I appreciate these guys demonstrate that as well, a level of empathy and understanding and come along you feel like they're, a partner with you when you're trying to solve problems. And I've had a lot of experience where. it was held, it was accountability, but almost just zero empathy. Like just, these are the numbers, you hit 'em or you don't, if you don't, you're not here anymore. Don't care. I'll find somebody else. And so, you know, and that's not good. And I think the culture, it sounds like you guys have developed and continue to lead is, Not one that lacks total accountability. It can't be because you guys have ran a successful business. You do have a successful business. So there's gotta be some level of accountability and pushing each other. But having that empathy there builds a culture where people know they can, you know, miss a number or make a mistake here and there and they're gonna get some grace. So I would just, I'll encourage you as someone who works in an environment like that, and I love it and I am not going anywhere and I, love working for this organization because of that. And I'll work. As hard and probably have more heart into it because of that. 'cause I just, I know they got my back and, you know, just try to go in and be faithful. So,

Brian 32:09

I appreciate that.

Jason 32:10

yeah. No, that's, that's good. What, I'd like to talk a little bit about your, your leadership principles and what your core kind of beliefs are in that, and then also who are some of your favorite. People to follow, to keep yourself sharp. Kurt, you talked about reading books. Is there podcasts or authors or you know, who do you, who do you like to follow to keep yourself sharp? So let's start, Kurt, I'll go to you first. And you know, again, what's your, what's like, is there a core principle that you always go back to in your leadership style? And then how do you stay sharp in that up?

Kurt 32:41

I love to ask questions and I couldn't quote the author, I read a book, good Leaders ask Great questions or Great leaders ask good questions. Something along those lines. And I was like, man, that's awesome. Like, I really liked that and I had found myself like, I think that's the way I was. That's my primary accountability component is to, I wanna know the perspective that this, like, why did you make that decision? Show me how you got to where you made that call because I don't agree with it, or it doesn't make sense, or whatever. And so give them an opportunity to explain themselves from, from their perspective. because I don't, otherwise I can judge their decision. Just let 'em have it. And I certainly have over the years for sure, far more than I should, but just try and ask those questions to get them to think about the decision that they made and how they got there and like, well, yeah, okay. I guess that maybe that didn't make sense. I'm like, okay, well I'm glad you see it my way, or, or like, Hey, I didn't think of that. And okay, now I. You know, had I had all that information, perhaps I would've made the same decision too. Now on the back end, we can in the rear view mirror, look at that and be like, eh, you know, how did we get there? And how can we avoid get doing that again in the future? So, yeah. I mean, as far as you know, podcasts, Andy, I love Andy Stanley, Craig, Rochelle, you know, some popular ones. Had the occasional John Maxwell podcast, this biblical Leadership at work one. Maybe you've heard of it.

Jason 34:09

Yeah.

Kurt 34:09

listened to a few of those. It's, That one's pretty good. although he is running out of guys to interview or gals to interview, it must be, 'cause you know, I got these brothers on there,

Jason 34:17

Bottom of the barrel.

Kurt 34:18

Yeah.

Brian 34:19

Clearly running outta good.

Kurt 34:20

Yeah. Yeah. But, like all my books are in boxes yet 'cause we recently moved, but I, Dale Carnegie, you know, how to Win Friends and Influence People, I think is probably the one I've read the most,

Jason 34:34

Yeah, that's classic.

Kurt 34:35

absolutely. I went through the 12 week course in like, I don't know, 2014 or 15 or something. and it. For me, it was a game changer. It just, it did a lot for me. but, you know, Jocko's, extreme ownership, one's been around a while. E-Myth, that was a good one from, boy, that's 20 years ago

Jason 34:51

That's a

Kurt 34:51

yeah, horse schultzes.

Brian 34:53

Excellent.

Kurt 34:54

that one? Brian?

Jason 34:54

I haven't heard of that one.

Kurt 34:55

It is a, the. Best customer service book ever. I think that I've read and there's a lot of 'em out there, but really, really worth a look.

Jason 35:05

All right. We'll link to, excellence wins. Okay.

Kurt 35:08

Mm-hmm.

Jason 35:08

Good.

Kurt 35:09

then I, you know, anything by Patrick Lencioni,

Jason 35:12

I love Lynche.

Kurt 35:13

the best.

Jason 35:14

Yeah, he was

Kurt 35:14

Yep. Five dysfunctions of the team. I mean, we've gone through that with our teams.

Jason 35:18

Yeah.

Kurt 35:18

you know, a lot.

Jason 35:19

How about you, Brian? Leadership principles that you kind of go back to, and then also some resources you'd recommend.

Brian 35:26

yeah. Leadership principles. I guess I've never really tried to define that, but, I think my leadership style or the things I fall back on anyways are. I try to, use a lot of praise. I didn't always, when I first started, I tried to argue a lot, fresh outta college, thought I knew some stuff, I realized real quick, that didn't work real good. I tend to look at the world through, rose colored glasses, It was Tim's phrase for me, really praise people when they do stuff right. I tend to have a relatively long fuse, when it comes to mistakes, probably too long at times. use every opportunity I can to praise the team, you know? certainly not try to take it, you know, when there's an issue, it's. It's on me when there's something's done right, it's on them, and really, you know, I find that builds a lot of, loyalty, it builds a lot of, I think it builds respect, for the people that you're working with, when they know that, you're not out there trying to look like all the good stuff's happening because you're in the room,

Jason 36:15

Yeah, that's right.

Brian 36:16

that's a very, Long-winded, answer

Jason 36:19

No, that's good.

Brian 36:20

but that's probably, I guess where, where, you know, I like to stick the most is, just, trying to build loyalty, among the team, you know? and, do that by, like I say, being willing to stand down range when it's bad news and, step aside when it's good news, you know?

Jason 36:33

Do you guys have any, do you guys do anything formally, like recognition programs or anything like that, or.

Brian 36:39

We've done a few different things. yeah, one of our core values is to, be completely positive, we've launched a couple times over 25 years, If one of our staff saw another one of our staff doing something amazing, you know, customer service wise or, teamwork wise or whatever, they could, throw a nomination in a box and then we'd review these nominations at the end of every month and then pick one, for each site. And then I think, what did each person get 50 bucks? Is that what it was?

Kurt 37:04

50

Brian 37:05

Yeah, I can't remember.

Kurt 37:05

Each person got 50

Brian 37:07

person got $50.

Kurt 37:08

The submitting

Brian 37:09

And the guy that

Kurt 37:10

the winner.

Jason 37:10

Oh, okay.

Brian 37:11

and then we would keep all of these nomination forms and print 'em out and put 'em in three ring binders. And that was our book of amazing goodness. And we had 'em in the lunch rooms so people could read about, all these past amazing deeds, and, that was fun, it'd have good traction for a while. after, 12 months or 18 months or whatever, it'd kind of start to fizzle out a little bit, so that was part of our feedback thing. we've always tried really hard to, publicly praise. you know, when we get a great review, you know, from our, you know, our sites, you know, on Google or whatever, or a really nice letter, you know, or whatever, you know, those will go in the break rooms or up on the. billboard, just, you know, bill bullets and boards. I, excuse me, you know, or, you know, when we've now got a digital website. So, you know, try to put the, that kind of good feedback up there for everybody to see. so that's, that's a big part of it. We love to, we love to praise for sure.

Jason 38:01

Yeah, recognition's powerful, and I think it's super easy as leaders for us to not do it enough and you just focus on the next thing and what's broke and what needs fixed, and

Brian 38:12

Yeah, Andy Stanley did a great podcast called In the Wake of Leadership, and that was one where, you know, that really hit me square between the eyes about, you know, showing gratitude. And it's oftentimes, especially, you know, high visionaries, you know, it's, it's, you know, what's next and where we're going next and, you know, yeah, good job, but, but, but what, you know, what now, you

Jason 38:31

Yep,

Brian 38:32

so for me that was a two by four To the backside there on, you gotta make sure you're doing that right, right?

Jason 38:38

I think recognition. That's why I wanted to ask you, and I'm glad you shared a couple of those examples. You can get so creative. I just encourage people to, you know, we've got a couple that we do that really came from some suggestions from some of our team leaders and they work and we do 'em and I've had different ones at different places that we come up with, so that's good.

Brian 38:54

Nope, nope.

Jason 38:55

well hey, guys, before we wrap up, which I appreciate, this has been good, this has been fun. Definitely appreciate your time. If someone wants to reach out and connect with you guys, like what's a good way for them to do that? You got email, you got LinkedIn stuff, you got a website, like what's the best way to reach you?

Brian 39:13

Yeah, for me, you know, I think email would be the best. my emails. Just Brian epsteins mill lawn.com.

Jason 39:19

Brian, and I'll put that,

Brian 39:20

Brian with an i, Brian with an brian epsteins.com

Jason 39:23

yep.

Brian 39:24

yeah, that's, the easiest way to get ahold of me.

Jason 39:26

Okay.

Kurt 39:26

Yeah, it is same. I, I am on LinkedIn. Looking at that probably daily. And but also the email kurt@sstevensville.com

Jason 39:34

good

Kurt 39:35

and,

Brian 39:35

Okay.

Jason 39:36

With A-K-K-U-R-T.

Kurt 39:38

Ku, yeah.

Jason 39:39

well, hey. Guys appreciate it, man. yeah, I know you guys run a business here in my backyard and I've seen it grow and over the, you know, even the last few years here and real close to me. So good for you on that. I think the Lord's blessed that, and I know your family has, you mentioned it earlier, but invested in some ministries I'm a part of and, so I've, I've seen the fruit even before I got to meet you guys. So I'm glad we got connected and thank you for your time. And we'll look forward to it now. Yeah, we'll tell everybody Happy New Year. This is gonna drop on New Year's day of 2026, so I pray that you guys have a great 2026 and good way to kick off the podcast for the year. So thank you.

Brian 40:16

Thank you for doing what you do, and we appreciate the opportunity.

Jason 40:19

All

Kurt 40:19

Yeah, absolutely Jason. Blessed to be a part of

Jason 40:21

great. and thank you again for listening in as we meet more leaders striving to honor Christ and their work. I pray that 2026 is a year in which you grow in your faith and in your effectiveness as a leader.