Ann Thompson - From P&G to Entrepreneur

Ann Thompson is passionate about leading using biblical principles. She is a leadership coach, podcaster, and successful entrepreneur. She also had a successful career with Proctor and Gamble after graduating from Ohio State University. 

Ann’s website 

LinkedIn 

Instagram @ann_eileen_thompson

6E’s of leadership download 

Career transition quiz 

Transcript

0:02

Welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast. I'm your host, Jason Woodard. On this month's episode, we will meet Anne Thompson. Listen in, as Anne talks about having a great career start at Procter and Gamble, then being recruited to a small company to bring her knowledge and expertise only to be fired for reasons that she now reflects on and takes ownership of. Yeah. Ann talks about how God grew her through that season, leading her to start her own business, which ultimately became successful before she sold it. Ann offers a lot of biblical wisdom learned through decades of experience and humbly walking with the Lord. I think you will be inspired as a leader by our guest, Ann.

Jason: 0:51

All right. Well, Anne Thompson, sister, I am, uh, excited to have you on the show. Thank you for joining us, uh, today on the podcast.

Ann: 0:58

having me, Jason. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Jason: 1:01

Yeah. So tell us, tell us about your background. How did God take you from, tell us a little bit about university and then tell career and where you're at today. How'd the Lord lead you through

Ann: 1:12

well, I'm a, I am a Cincinnati girl. I live in Cincinnati, Ohio. I've been an Ohio native pretty much my whole life, and I went to Ohio State, majored in journalism and thought that I would not necessarily be a journalist, but I was really interested in. People's behavior, why did they do what they did? And so I took a job at Macy's, which wasn't Macy's back then it was called something different, but in Cincinnati it was not called Macy's, but took a job there. Did that for about a year and a half until I got to a point where through, I won't tell you the whole long story, but, but, but I started to understand that that wasn't the right job for me. We'll just say that. We'll just say that. And I, I was, I was realizing, and I think in hindsight. The Holy Spirit was nudging me to say, this isn't what I designed you for. And got into a little bit of a situation with my store manager there where I had been trying to build the business and kind of stepped on some toes and upset some people, and she didn't like that I had called the buyer directly and things like that. So I left that

Jason: 2:17

go. You are a go-getter, young

Ann: 2:19

I was like, I was a go getting entrepreneur, but I didn't even know that word back then. And so I left, I left Macy's back then, if you knew somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody, you could get yourself an interview at Procter and Gamble, which is, you know, a place I, I really thought was the best place in the world to work. So I got myself a job at Procter and Gamble, and I will tell you, I loved p and g. I loved p and

Jason: 2:39

Yeah, big company.

Ann: 2:40

Great company, amazing leadership skills that you learn there. Incredible business framework skills that you learn there, all those types of things. And I would say that at that time I knew Jesus. I, I knew him. I had known him for a very long time. I grew up Catholic, but I always was the little oddball of the Catholic, meaning I always felt a little out of place'cause I would cry during the hymns.

Jason: 3:04

Hmm.

Ann: 3:05

I had no way to process what that meant. I didn't know that that was the Holy Spirit impacting me and touching me back then I would sit in my closet and talk to God, which wasn't what I was taught. I was taught, this is how you pray with these specific words. And I didn't have a way to kind of place even what was happening for me, but I had a

Jason: 3:26

This was when you were a child

Ann: 3:27

I was a kid and so by the time I was in college, I had a relationship with Jesus. I just didn't really talk about it. And even in my young adulthood and my first couple jobs, I didn't know how to talk about it. It felt like because of the specific way I was raised, I don't think the Catholic church is like this, but the specific way I was raised, I didn't feel like I could talk about it. And so I was hearing from God and talking to him and praying a lot as I went through that initial career transition. But it wasn't until I got to proctor and two things happened. One, I had my first baby. When I had my first kid, I remember one morning waking up thinking, I don't know if I wanna raise this child the same way I was raised. I think I want a different faith component in our lives. And I had met some people who were living out their faith in a really different way at Proctor. And I actually got invited while I was at Proctor, was very young at Proctor. I got invited to a women's Bible study group that was studying, experiencing God. By Henry Blackaby, which just absolutely changed my life. And so I'm kind of mixing some of my faith background with some of my business background and my resume, but to me, they're a little bit inseparable. And hearing that God cared about my work, learning how to give language to this relationship I had with Jesus. Was really breakthrough for me and it really changed the trajectory of how I thought about my career and how I thought about leadership and how I heard from the Lord on things related to work. Very early in my career was probably in my mid twenties when this

Jason: 4:57

What, and, and what kind of role were you in at that

Ann: 4:59

I was in a, a fairly entry level market research role, so my job was to help the, help the business understand what consumers wanted, what they didn't want, what they liked, what they didn't like, and help the business to make informed decisions about which products to put into market. Um, I stayed at Proctor for 13 years. And really through that whole time I was growing up in the organization and, you know, I worked a bunch of different types of roles all within the market research function, but through that season I, I could hear the Lord saying to me things like, you're a leader of leaders. And I really believed that meant I would continue to grow at Proctor. I'd spent my whole career there and I would be a leader of leaders. Proctor is a company of leaders, and it wasn't until about 12 years in. I had, I will, I will say I had prayed a prayer pretty regularly when I was at Proctor. If you want me to leave this company, Lord, I will. Even though I really wanted him to say, yeah, you can stay. And about 12 and a half years in or something, I, I heard him say, yeah, it's time to go. It's time to go. And so I took a role. I left Proctor on the, on the day that I was promoted my, my management team. Decided on a promotion for me and I pulled my manager out of the meeting and said, don't approve that promotion'cause I'm gonna resign. So anyway, I resigned and turned down that promotion and went to a little company. So I went from this big behemoth of an organization. I think we had 144,000 employees at the time Proctor did to an A company where I, I was employee number 17. And it, that was a market research and innovation consultancy essentially. And my job was to help them build out a consulting P practice. And really, I ended up kind of being kind of the general manager of the business, putting a lot of structure and systems in place, all the things I had learned at Proctor. That company was run, run by a couple believers who were just awesome guys. And that was a, it was a really fun job for the first couple of years. And then the second couple of years, frankly, my ego and my pride. I got ahead of me and I started thinking I was the most important thing in the world to that company. And it caught up with me and they let me go. But in the meantime, before they let me go, I had started playing around with this idea of starting a company with a business partner. And I was, we were actually, we had to started the company kind of nights and weekends type of thing. And then when I got fired, I really had a big decision to make.'cause at the time I was going through a divorce, got fired from this job, had this fledgling business idea. Now had financial responsibility for me and my three kids. We needed health insurance. They were all school age, and it really became a, a really interesting turning point in my career and in my relationship with the Lord. It was the first time I, the leap from proctor to the small company felt like a pretty big leap. But this leap of, should I just start this company at this season and this time when it feels

Jason: 7:52

Yeah. You need security at that time. You need security.

Ann: 7:56

like I needed security, but the Lord was really clear. No, start the company. So I did, um, my, within three months, my business partner had to quit his day job to come join me full time.'cause we were starting to take off. That company did very well. Um, it's still around these days, it's called the Garage Group. Uh, they, they work with big companies like Proctor, like American Express, like Nike, to help them learn how to operate more like startups. And it was such a, for me it was a beautiful expression of faith.'cause it was really teaching people how to walk through fear at work, you know?'cause the reason we don't make certain decisions at work oftentimes is'cause of fear and et cetera, et cetera. So we spent a couple years on the Inc 500 fastest growing company list. We did the best Place to Work awards, all that kind of stuff. And then about eight years into that, I heard the Lord say, you're gonna need to untangle yourself from this'cause I have something else for you. And that felt kind of scary. At that time, I was the CEO Co. CEO of that company, and it felt a little daunting to figure out how to untangle myself, especially when I really wasn't clear what I would do next. But I wanted to be obedient, so I stepped down. We brought in another CEOI stepped down, pulled back to part-time, and then eventually within about a year, sold the company and took a break that I thought would be three months. Turned in 18 months and during that time, God really led me to what I'm doing now. So these days I coach and develop leaders. From all different types of backgrounds. So I have clients who are C-suite professionals and they're navigating kind of maybe a career transition or they're navigating some con conflict at work or some strategic challenge at work. I work with CEOs, I work with all kinds small business owners. So it's a pretty broad range of folks that I work with. And that thing that the Lord had spoken to me early at Proctor when he said, you're a leader of leaders. I finally get it.

Jason: 9:51

like that's it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Ann: 9:53

So that's what I'm doing these days. I'm, I'm a, I'm a writer. I have my first book coming out probably in January. Um, that's all about how to navigate your career with God,

Jason: 10:02

Okay.

Ann: 10:03

I'm very excited about. And then I host a podcast too. We are fellow podcasters called, uh, the Faith, faith Driven Leader, the Faith Driven Leader. So very similar to yours. I interview other leaders, so we probably have some guest overlap even,

Jason: 10:17

we need to swap

Ann: 10:18

or if we don't, we should.

Jason: 10:19

We

Ann: 10:20

Yeah.

Jason: 10:21

I, no, that's great. And we will link to those.'cause that's what we're trying to get resources out to our listeners. Uh, what's your, what's your book gonna be called?

Ann: 10:29

It is, it's called Faith at Work, a practical guide to aligning your career with who God created you to be.

Jason: 10:36

Wonderful. That's good. I've had the opportunity to interview several authors who have written books about faith and work, so that's great. I think, I think that that is in the last 10 years or so, become something that is being more spoken about, written about, talked about in the faith community, and I think it's

Ann: 10:57

I, I fully agree it, I feel like when I was, even when I was leading the Garage group, there wasn't it, it just wasn't talked about as much. It, it was talked about, but maybe behind closed doors.

Jason: 11:06

Yeah.

Ann: 11:07

feels like there's so much more community building in this space. I just was at a conference last week. It was actually a breakfast, a Christian business, women's breakfast in St. Louis by an organization called Rooted Sisters. They started with, with two women. They were, I think, almost 900 women there

Jason: 11:26

Wow.

Ann: 11:26

who are all integrating their faith with their work. It was re, it was really cool. So inspiring and so hopeful. I felt so much hope coming out of it. Yeah.

Jason: 11:35

think, uh, Peggy Bode Con connected you and I. Right. So she's another

Ann: 11:39

She's another person who's doing that. Yeah.

Jason: 11:41

leadership and work, so that's great. I wanna go back. No, that's, that's, that's exciting to hear. Um, I have some questions on the book thing. We can get to those later. But, uh, Anne, I wanna talk a little bit about you. When you talked about being let go from a job and you reflected on. Some of your, oh, I think that was really vulnerable and really reflective of you to say. I mean, it's very, it's very rare that you hear people say, I got let go, and I kind of

Ann: 12:10

I deserved it.

Jason: 12:11

of people are like, I got let go. And that, that place was terrible and those guys

Ann: 12:14

Uh, no. I deserved it. I

Jason: 12:16

so, so if you don't mind, I'd like to hear like, what did you learn through that? What lessons can others learn from that? Because I think especially with high performers, which, you know, we're talking to leaders and people that want to be leaders and who tends to be high performing individuals, that can become a, a, a pretty major problem when we're successful in those times of success for us, um, including myself. So

Ann: 12:42

yeah. It's

Jason: 12:43

I reflect on that a

Ann: 12:44

There it's, there's, so there was so much learning in that season for me, Jason. And the interesting thing is that, you know, they were a much smaller company. They were doing market research. I had been a client of theirs. Before I joined the company and I had so much respect for them and the way that they, the culture that they were building and the organization that they had, but I had this belief that I, I, I recognize now, I had from day one, which was, well, I'm the bigwig expert coming in. I know more than the owners. And that was my num, that was my first mistake, was believing and operating by a belief that I don't have anything to learn. I only have things to teach.

Jason: 13:23

Yeah, especially coming from a big company, right, to a small

Ann: 13:26

and, and you know, I mean, they had, they had courted me and, and we all kind of felt that way. Anne's gonna come in and teach us all of these things, and, and I wanted to do that. I felt really valuable by being able to bring a lot of things that they hadn't had the opportunity to learn or understand. But over time, what that turned into was a little bit of a weird dynamic in the culture where the rest of the team kind of looked at me as the leader. Of the whole organization, which I wasn't, and in the process what I was doing, not necessarily, I, I, I, it would be hard for me to honestly say I didn't realize I was doing it.'cause I did realize I was doing it. I was disrespecting the leaders.

Jason: 14:06

Yeah.

Ann: 14:06

the leaders made a decision, people looked to me to see if I agreed or not. And if I didn't agree, I voiced it.

Jason: 14:11

Mm-hmm.

Ann: 14:12

Of course that created a cancer in the organization that created all kinds of dysfunction and a lot of distrust in leadership, which is not healthy for a small company. And so in hindsight, what I can see is that, you know, the, the Bible's clear. Like, give to Caesar what is Caesars and respect your authorities. And I didn't do that. I didn't do it. And even if I had something valuable to bring, there were different ways for me to have done that. In a way that honored the authority structure and I just blew that authority structure away and tried to create my own. And that's a very dangerous thing, and especially in a small company,

Jason: 14:50

Yeah, I mean, I can, I have made, I've worked for Fortune 500 companies and I'm currently working at a company of man. When I got there, it was 45 people and globally there's, you know, whatever, hundreds. It's small and so I can. See when you're, when you're recruited for your level of expertise that that could happen

Ann: 15:10

I mean, it's an interesting, it's an interesting balance, right? Like it was very appropriate and noble of me to bring my skills and offer

Jason: 15:18

exactly. Yeah.

Ann: 15:20

give all that I had

Jason: 15:21

And service, right?

Ann: 15:22

but not in service of my own ego and my own importance. And it was such a humbling experience because the, you know, the day they fired me, I remember thinking. What the heck? I mean, at first I didn't realize I deserved it.

Jason: 15:36

Yeah,

Ann: 15:37

I'll be honest, I was, I was angry and, and a lot of people on the staff were angry, but the more I reflected on it, I thought, you know what, they were right. They were right.

Jason: 15:47

yeah,

Ann: 15:48

And, and God taught me so many things through that. And I, I know that we ran the garage group differently because of of, of what had been learned there.

Jason: 15:57

Yeah. And I will say too, I'm guessing, and one of the things I really appreciate about people like yourself and that can come on here and have those transparent conversations, it's because that's a real lived experience. I don't ever want to give this impression of, Hey, you know, everything's great. Everything's fine.'cause it's not always so, life's messy for leaders, for believers, and I, I found in my, in my life, and it. It. The greatest sanctification and greatest spiritual growth in my life has come through God using my work many times to wr it outta me, to get through my thick head. And so you were going through that at the time, and you mentioned a divorce, which that had to been just a very huge, I would say I just very spiritually. Growing, stretching. Difficult time of life

Ann: 16:51

it, you know, it's interesting when I, when I look back on it, Jason, there were parts of it that were so difficult and parts of it that were so beautiful because I had to rely on the Lord in a way. I had never had to rely on him before.

Jason: 17:05

Yeah. Right. Well, exactly. That's exactly right. Because everything, that's what I mean. It's like when I've thought I've got this all under control, things are going great, and it's the times that the Lord has shown me. Reminded me you are absolutely not in control and things can go sideways in a moment, and I go back to him more than as I should be anyways.

Ann: 17:27

One of my favorite stories from that season was. When you start a company, you don't, you're not making a lot of money. You know, we, I mean, we were, we were bootstrapping and we were a, a consultancy, so it's not like we had product revenue coming in, you know, it was all dependent on what gigs we could land. And we started the company, I think it was like officially April, may, June or something. So the following year in August, we're getting ready for school to start, and I got these three kids, they're all in. Elementary school, elementary, middle school, and I get the school supply list, which if you're a parent, you're rolling your eyes right now with the school supply list, right? I had no money, I had no money to buy school supplies. I mean, I really didn't. It was like gonna be, you know,$150 worth of school supplies for these three kids. And, and I didn't have a lot of financial support from, um, from my, my former husband. And so I thought, okay, well Lord, what am I gonna do? So this is crazy story. No joke. We're sitting in our office that we co, we co-worked with a couple of other companies, rented this office space before co-working was cool. We were doing it and somebody walks into our office with a red envelope and no, nobody in the office recognizes this person. And they just say, Hey, is there somebody in Ann here? And I was like, well, yeah, I'm right here. Give me this red envelope. I open it up. It's a card with like little buttons in the shape of a heart. open up the card and there's three$25 gift certificate or like credit card, like those Visa gift cards with a little note that just says for you and your kids. I, to this day don't know who got who gave me that, and it was such a beautiful reminder. I mean, I burst out crying because it was like, okay, now I can buy school supplies. But it was just such a beautiful picture of what God means when he says he is gonna provide for us.

Jason: 19:10

Yeah.

Ann: 19:11

So tangible.

Jason: 19:12

Yep. Yeah, exactly.

Ann: 19:14

It just really

Jason: 19:15

of the blue.

Ann: 19:15

changed my understanding of what that means, of what he means when he says he'll provide for us. Yeah,

Jason: 19:22

Absolutely. What's, uh, tell us, so tell us about your family right now and where, like, what's that look like? What's, uh, those kids are probably not in

Ann: 19:30

No, they're not. So I, I got remarried, uh, in 2015 and my husband, rich and I have five children Between us. And when we got married, they were all teenagers. If we had had any understanding of what we were doing, like getting married with five teenagers under one roof, we, I don't know that we would've done it. So many hormones, but they are now, we have 2 21 year olds, a 23, a 24, and a 26. Um, we're, we're so blessed. All of our kids still live in Cincinnati, which is a blessing in a lot of ways. And, you know, I never want them to feel like they have to stay here. I want them to know they can, they can do whatever they, they feel called to do. Um, but they're, they're awesome. And my husband and I are pretty connected to, uh, our church. We do a lot on the prayer team and. Our church does all kinds of really crazy entrepreneurial, fun stuff here in Cincinnati and beyond, and so we're, we're just blessed to be, to be part of that. We have a Bernice Mountain dog. Her name's Faith, and she's sitting under my desk right now as we speak, like right on my feet. She's a big girl. She's a big girl. Yeah.

Jason: 20:36

That's funny.

Ann: 20:37

Yeah.

Jason: 20:38

Talk to me a little bit more about your Faith's journey. So you said you grew up in you in a Catholic background, but as you went to university and at Proctor and Gamble, like what did that look like for you and where you, when you started Proctor and Gamble, were you in church at the time or just seeking, and then how's that? How'd that look?

Ann: 20:56

Yeah, so you know, it's interesting I mentioned that. Even as a young girl, I, I felt this connection to Jesus. I didn't into the Holy Spirit, but I didn't have language for it. When I was in high school, there was a, a, a friend of mine who went to a, uh, I think it was a Baptist church, which in my mind I didn't even back then understand that Catholic and Christian were actually. Kind of connected. I really thought they were very different. But she invited me to a youth group thing, and I remember we were, we were playing volleyball and they, they talked about, you know, do you want a relationship with Jesus? And it was the first time I'd ever heard that question. And, and I prayed that prayer because I thought, well, of course I do. I mean, I already have one, but I'll pray that prayer. And it was, it was really the first time, Jason, that I started having some language around. What it looked like to have a relationship with Jesus, but I was still too scared to not go through the kind of rights and rituals that I had grown up with. So I stayed part of a Catholic church. My, my, um, husband and I, when we got married, we jumped around a couple different churches, tried to find one where we felt most comfortable. And like I said, when I had my first child, which was right around the time I was doing this Bible study at Proctor, I, I just felt the Lord say. There are other places that you can find me and grow in your relationship with me. And so we found a non-denominational church here in Cincinnati and started going there and, and really my spiritual growth took off. It was really, it was like all of a sudden I felt like I could talk about Jesus in a way that I didn't feel comfortable talking about him before. And I was learning things about the Bible and realizing I could read the Bible on my own. I didn't need a priest to do it

Jason: 22:38

Yep.

Ann: 22:39

things like that. So I would say my spiritual life has grown. And of course, just like all of us probably, you know, I have periods of tremendous growth and then some plateauing or some even decline and then growth again over the past 10 years, uh, really big, my, my husband and I are very clear about where Jesus fits in our marriage

Jason: 23:02

Yeah.

Ann: 23:02

the center of it. And we are very interested in. Encouraging other each other and spurring each other on to learn more, to be more in love with him, to, with my husband and with Jesus. Um, and to really to learn how to become who he actually created me to be.

Jason: 23:22

yeah. What are your spiritual disciplines, Anne? What? What have those things that you've developed to help you grow?

Ann: 23:28

Yeah, I, you know, spiritual disciplines are, I used to hate that word, but it's, but it's so good, right? It's so good when you're doing them regularly and I'm not perfect at it at all. But for me, uh, having some time each morning with the Lord, even if that's just to read, even on, there's some days I just read the verse of the day and just let it stoke in and pray about it. Other days I might. Read a lot more of scripture or read a devotional, that type of thing. But morning, I have to spend time with the Lord in the morning. I, I just find that it's really hard for me to function very well if I don't. One that I wish I did better at, that I did really well when I was more full-time working and running, running the garage group, is that I, I would take a day, a month and just carve out that whole day and go someplace, usually someplace where I could walk a trail or. Kind of be in the proximity of water, you know, some kind of nature. Nature's a big, a big thing for me. I feel very close to the Lord in nature and take that time daily or monthly, that whole day away to listen, pray, journal, that type of thing. Those are probably the two most. Consistent of the practices. I haven't been doing the monthly thing. And, and actually, you know, you had sent me some of these questions ahead of time and I thought, oh yeah, I need to get back to scheduling those. I, I've let that discipline go a little bit.

Jason: 24:46

yeah.

Ann: 24:47

So those are probably the, the daily one for me is a, is a big one. Um, my husband and I have a weekly prayer time. You know, we we're not very good at praying together every single day. I wish I could say we were, but what we schedule. Time to pray together at least once a week at least.

Jason: 25:04

When do you do it? When is that? Like weekend?

Ann: 25:06

no, we do it early. Early one weekday morning.

Jason: 25:10

Okay. Before work?

Ann: 25:11

just what kind of works for, we both work at home. We both have pretty flexible schedules and so sometimes it gets moved around a little bit, but that's what works best for us.

Jason: 25:19

That's cool. I've not heard, I mean that, that's why I love talking to people about this because yes, it's uh, there's some creativity and innovation in the way that people spend time with the Lord. I mean, yes, we need to be in the word and we need to be in prayer, but I've talked with people who spend time walking and praying and, you know, taking time away once a month. One of my friends who's been on the show, Brandon West, who's a. A business owner, um, also an author wrote a great book. It's Not Your Business to Succeed. Another one I recommend, but he talked about getting away once a month, um, yeah, for those kind of, those focus times.

Ann: 25:56

I heard another really, really good one. Um, also from somebody that I interviewed on my podcast who said that when he, when he goes to work, he parks the car and as he is walking from the car to the office, that's a cue for him to pray.

Jason: 26:09

Yeah.

Ann: 26:09

And he like prays over his schedule for the day. And I thought, what a cool, if I had an office to go to and like, walk to it, I would, I would probably try to do that.

Jason: 26:18

Yeah.

Ann: 26:19

a great way to kind of get your day focused before you go into it. And a mentor of mine, um, who sadly is not with us anymore, but she used to, she used to tell me that she would look at her calendar and consider it her dance card for the day, and she would remind herself that Jesus is the lead, he's the lead dancer, and she would commit each of those dances to him.

Jason: 26:40

Yeah.

Ann: 26:40

That was I, when I'm, when I'm really on my game, I do a great job of that. Like in the morning, like looking over my calendar going, oh, I'm gonna be talking to Jason today. Like, okay, Lord, let me remind myself and remind you that you're the lead.

Jason: 26:53

Yeah.

Ann: 26:54

a good, disciplined practice to do.

Jason: 26:56

It is good and none of us are perfect at all of it, but I think yeah, to challenge ourselves, like you said, that trend up of growing and sanctification and different things in different ways. Um, so no, I appreciate you sharing

Ann: 27:08

Yeah. Yeah,

Jason: 27:10

Hey, Anne, over the years I would like to understand what you've kind of developed as your leadership. Pillars, like what are the things that you go back to now? You work with leaders. You coach leaders, which is great because I'm sure you've been able to refine that model or that view of that you have. But what are those things that you think are just time and time again that are important to go back to and

Ann: 27:33

Yeah. You know, at Proctor I learned this leadership definition that was so powerful. They called it the five E's of leadership. Since then, I've added a sixth e and it, it's, I'll, I'll tell you what the, what the sixth dimensions of leadership are. The, the first one is envisioning. Great leaders cast a, cast a vision. Jesus cast an incredible vision when he came to Earth, right? And the Holy Spirit cast vision for us and the Lord cast vision when he created the earth and the heavens and people and all those things. So we, first, we envision, then we engage, get people engaged in what we're doing, make a connection between the vision and them. that's the second E is engagement. The third E is enable, we've gotta teach them and give them the skills and give them the, the equipping that they need. Again, it, it's interesting if you look at all of these, you know, Proctor didn't develop them based on the life of Jesus, but you could actually go back and see how they mapped to, to what Jesus did with his disciples and with people. But equipping, giving people tools, giving people teaching, giving people the equipping that they need, enabling or equipping, you can call it either one. The, the next one is empowering. We've got to empower people that they can, you know, go and make disciples. You know, Jesus modeled this as well. The one I added is encouragement. We've got to encourage people and lift people, call people up into who they are and to what their gift of that and how they can operate. And again, Jesus did this a lot. He didn't condemn people, he convicted them, but in that conviction, he's calling people up to a higher vision of who he sees them to be. And then the last D is execute. You've got to get it done.

Jason: 29:07

You

Ann: 29:07

You gotta get it done, you gotta be accountable, you gotta get the stuff done. So those, those are kind of my leadership pillars, if you will, that I try to hold myself to. And whenever I'm working with a client, especially if we're working through a leadership type of challenge, we're looking at what's missing in your organization or your business or your team. Are they lacking some, some vision? Are they lacking some skills? Are you just not encouraging anyone?

Jason: 29:34

Yeah.

Ann: 29:34

Is there a lack of accountability? Many times that starts at the top, like, are you accountable? Then your team should be accountable. So it's, they're, they're very scripturally rooted, but they're very practical when it comes to leadership.

Jason: 29:48

Here's one thing I've learned. I actually was thinking about this today, a few minutes before we got on here. I don't know why this thought popped in my head. Maybe because I was gonna say it here.'cause what you just said, any, I would say this, any leadership principle that's right, is a biblical

Ann: 30:06

Yes. Fully

Jason: 30:07

it's got all truth is God's truth. Right? And I can tell you that every single time. That I've read or heard a leadership principle that works. That's right. That's good. I guarantee you can tie that back to a biblical principle. It is. It comes from the truth. It God's word. It comes from what he's set up and designed and created and so, and it is good that we have writers and gifted people that can say it in different ways that are easier for us to remember. Like one of my favorite authors is Patrick Lencioni, and he has this incredible gift to take, you know, these principles that we talk about that can be ambiguous and hard to understand and he just puts'em in this story that's practical and understandable. And relatable and

Ann: 30:53

Agree. Totally.

Jason: 30:55

uh, it's good.

Ann: 30:56

yeah.

Jason: 30:56

That is good. And I think it's good to have that, that framework. All of us should have some kind of a framework, I think, as leaders. That we hold ourselves to. And then as you said, when we sense there's a gap in our leadership that we can reflect on that and say, okay, if this, if this model is true, and over time you fine tune it. Like you added, right, you added one. And we say, if this model is true, then there's something I'm missing. I've, with individual contributors in my career that I've coached, I will give them and encourage them to read. The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,

Ann: 31:33

That's a great

Jason: 31:33

and I, it's a great book. And again, all, all biblical principles, and I've found time and time again that if there's a individual contributes individual contributor, any leaders too, but definitely individual contributors. If they're not performing well, if they're having issues, I can pinpoint one of the seven habits that they, or more, at least one, that they're dropping the ball

Ann: 31:56

that's a really good, I lo I love that tactic. That's a, I might borrow that one, Jason. Thank you. That's good. It's good. I.

Jason: 32:03

Um, uh, we talk, maybe we hit on this a little bit. I always like to ask this question, like, what is something that you learned early on as a young leader? Uh, that was a tough lesson. That's something you struggled with. Uh, we talked about your time going to that small company. I think that's a great example. Yeah. Is that, I mean, is,

Ann: 32:21

You know, I, I think that the other one that, that I was one of the hardest things for me to learn. I don't, I wish I could say I learned it when I was younger. I didn't, I didn't learn it until much later. Is is the, the importance of. Good, healthy conflict resolution.

Jason: 32:37

Hmm.

Ann: 32:38

Um, I was a conflict avoider. I mean, I really was, and I'm, my excuse was like, I'm just,

Jason: 32:43

so

Ann: 32:44

I'm not good at conflict. Right. And it was interesting when we brought, um, uh, the new CEO into the garage group when my co-founder and I were both stepping down. One of the things I admired about him was I, I might perceived that he was really good at conflict. And I remember I said to him one day, I said, okay, while you're here and while I'm working with you, I wanna learn how to handle conflict. And he just started laughing. And he said, it's so funny because I used to be terrible at conflict, but the Lord kept putting me in conflict, conflict situations until I learned it. And I felt like. So seen and like, not a, not necessarily like a, oh, I feel seen, I feel so beautiful. I felt seen, like convicted, like, oh yes, the Lord keeps putting me in conflict situations and I'm not learning what I need to learn. And I think part of it was Jason, I hadn't reached out to ask for help and support and coaching in that, in that space.

Jason: 33:39

Yeah.

Ann: 33:40

hadn't.'cause I, that's how much of an avoider I was like, I will do everything to avoid conflict and, and I learned a tremendous amount. Through working with him and watching how he handled conflict and talking through how I was feeling about conflict and him coaching me through to a certain degree. The first step was like learning to compartmentalize my emotions a little bit better, but a lot of my issue was taking responsibility for how other people feel, and that's why I avoided conflict. I didn't want people to feel bad.

Jason: 34:11

Yeah.

Ann: 34:11

I had to learn, I heard this expression the other day, the idea of accountability with empathy,

Jason: 34:16

Yeah.

Ann: 34:17

and that to me is the key to conflict resolution is accountability with empathy. Like, I'm gonna empathize with you and I can understand what you're feeling and I can articulate what I'm feeling, but at the end of the day, this is the thing we need to address.

Jason: 34:31

Yep. Speak the truth in love. I think I read that

Ann: 34:35

right. Somewhere, somewhere.

Jason: 34:37

Where did I read

Ann: 34:37

But it's so hard. It's so difficult in

Jason: 34:40

It is

Ann: 34:40

in our world to do. And especially at work, I think.

Jason: 34:44

One of the things that it said, the scriptures, and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be able to say what verse it was, but it says that Jesus came full of grace and truth. And I remember, like I read that one time and then I ended up preaching a message on it. I was like, this is so powerful. There's, it's one sentence, but he came full, full, not of exactly of both. Perfectly full of both. Full of grace and truth. And that's the trick, like for us to figure that out. How come we

Ann: 35:12

You, you

Jason: 35:12

I

Ann: 35:12

be like half truth and half grace. You have to

Jason: 35:15

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that when I see leaders, they, they're extreme on one side or the other. It's all grace. So you avoid conflict. I don't wanna hurt anyone's feeling. Yep. Or it's pure truth. Don't care. Bulldog, I'm gonna tell you what I think. I literally don't care what you feel. And it's, I think people are wired towards one way or another, naturally. A book I read a couple years ago that I really, really loved, and it's, it's not by a Christian author, but she articulated this truth really well, and it's called Radical

Ann: 35:49

Yes, I've read that. Yeah.

Jason: 35:52

It's a great book. It's, it's, it's, it's a business book of speaking the truth in love, and she talks just great examples and

Ann: 35:59

Totally. Yeah, I know. Another one along those lines is the Fearless Organization by a Amy Edmondson, and she talks about the idea of psychological safety, which a lot of times comes from our ability to healthily manage conflict.

Jason: 36:12

Yeah,

Ann: 36:13

You know,

Jason: 36:13

yeah. Just be able to say like, yeah, I, I had a conversation with a peer recently. And I just said, Hey, can I give you some feedback? I wanna get permission. And yeah, that person allowed said yes. And so we had a good conversation and I was like, I don't want to get her mad. I don't want, but it was fine. I was glad I did it. I'm always, you know, you're always, always glad you did

Ann: 36:32

the, the cool thing is I, I now spend time training people on how to do feedback and it's, it's so, it, I just, every time I do it, I, I remind myself and remind the Lord, like, thank you for teaching me this.

Jason: 36:47

Yeah,

Ann: 36:47

'cause I didn't have, I wish I'd had it when I was younger, but I'm glad I have it now.

Jason: 36:51

I can remember the first time I ever had to write somebody up. I was a young supervisor. I was so nervous. It was, it's so funny. Thi it's so funny thinking back now, but I had a, uh, a seasoned HR professional who's, she's still a mentor and friend of mine. Uh, we've known each other for 25 years. And, um, you know, she was there when I did it and we, yeah. Had the guy come in and it was like, she was like, whatever, this is one of a hundred things I'm gonna do today. They're no big deal. And it was very professional, not heartless, but just like, very matter of factly. And I was like, man, I wanna be like that someday.

Ann: 37:25

It's awesome. It does takes a lot of practice too.

Jason: 37:28

It does. Oh well, it does. Absolutely. Uh, and so you, right now you consult with business leaders, you coach leaders and you. Do that with people who are believers, not believers. Both. Am I correct?

Ann: 37:43

I, I would say, yeah, go ahead.

Jason: 37:45

so with that in mind, so you work, you work with people from faith background, not faith background. How the work that you do, how do you honor Christ in that? And how do you see that work as glorifying him? That's the

Ann: 37:58

Yeah. You know, I, I think that even if I'm working with someone who's not a believer, which there aren't many, there are lots of people who are believers but don't want to talk about faith as it relates to their work. That's a different situation. But I would, I would say that my mindset is that my role in the kingdom is to serve people with the gifts that the Lord has given me. With the ability to help them see themselves as God sees them, whether or not we're we're talking about God in that, or not

Jason: 38:33

Yeah.

Ann: 38:34

helping them to see themselves as God sees them, helping them to see situations. Handle them in a way, to your point earlier, all of the great business truths are actually rooted in, in scripture. They, we can learn. So Jesus is the best leader we can learn from. And so I'm honoring him by teaching those principles and truths about how we treat people and how we manage accusation and how we all those things, right? That, that we learn from Jesus and. I'm honoring him by doing that because I, you know, I think it's that we gotta be real careful in our work to not err on the side of it's our works versus our work. And when it's, well, I've gotta do all these things to, you know, get this person to see it the way they should see it. That I don't believe that's my job. That's the Holy Spirit's job. Holy Spirit is in

Jason: 39:26

Yeah, that's right.

Ann: 39:27

I'm in the business of, let me just do what I do and let God be in charge of the results.

Jason: 39:33

be faithful, right? Be faithful, and the rest is up to the

Ann: 39:37

exactly. And I will tell you what, what has been just so rewarding is seeing a lot of my coaching clients who go from. They're just working for identity and performance and they kind of realize it, but maybe they don't fully realize it. And when they get free of that and you know, and people think, well, is it just touchy-feely coaching? You do? No, it's real hard. Business coaching, career coaching, but it comes from a place of let's actually identify the real barrier, which is probably fear or performance or identity or something like that that's getting in people's way. And whether that's. Kind of laced with or soaked in biblical language or not. The truth is still the truth.

Jason: 40:19

Yeah, that's right. Well, and I think that's good, and that's why I asked that clarifying question of you're working with believers and unbelievers and you're, you're doing work. That's restorative, that's building up, that's, you know, creative and bringing those principles and truths. You said something right at the beginning that I think that all believers need to, whether you're in leadership or not, all believers need to view their work. As I go to serve, I go to serve. I don't care if you're, I work in manufacturing, so I think about people who come in to do their job well and work with other people well and. Whether they're a technician or an operator or whatever, and if they come in with that mindset, I'm here to serve. I'm here to do my job well, I'm here to collaborate with my coworkers and as a believer, if they're a believer to honor God and what I'm doing, whatever that is I'm doing. That's a beautiful thing and it does honor him. Whatever it is that you're doing, you, he's given us these gifts and these opportunities and so yeah. That's good.

Ann: 41:20

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason: 41:22

Uh, and I want to talk a little bit about like, who do you follow? So you're a author and you're a podcaster, but who do you fo who does and follow to try to stay sharp as a leader?

Ann: 41:33

Well, you know, I, I mentioned already from a leadership perspective, I, my desire is to more deeply understand who Jesus was as a leader all the

Jason: 41:41

Yeah, yeah.

Ann: 41:42

And it, it, he is, he is the ultimate. that I'm, I try to follow as much as I can. And obviously there's, there's a book in particular that is very good at helping with that. It's, you know, the good old B-I-B-L-E. Right. So, um, I, I think his, I, you mentioned Pat Lencioni. He is brilliant. He's got a podcast that I think is great. I'm excited.'cause it sounds like he's working on a book project that is a little bit more like, how does your trauma get in the way of your leadership, which I think is such a. Important topic right now. Um, I, I really love what John Mark Comer is doing. So he's a pastor out of Oregon and, and he, it's so interesting to me because I find that there are certain folks who are pastors, but I learn a lot from them about business.

Jason: 42:28

Yeah.

Ann: 42:29

John Mark Comer is one of them. You know, the works of Tim Keller, his

Jason: 42:32

Yeah. Oh, I'm a big Tim Keller fan. I love, I, I, uh, he's in my podcast feed. What a heart. What a heart. Just a way to articulate.

Ann: 42:41

Yeah. I think from a business perspective, Jim Collins, you know, good, good to great, and just wow, so much good stuff there. He's somebody that I have paid attention to for a long time. My very favorite leadership book, other than the Bible, is the Leadership Challenge, like s and s and Posner. I read it probably when I was 23, first joining Proctor. Again, it's not, it's not a scriptural based book. It's not a biblical based book, but so much good leadership truth in there. Um, uh, uh, Henry Cloud

Jason: 43:18

Yeah. Oh, I like Dr. Henry

Ann: 43:20

and, uh, the, the, the book, uh, integrity, uh, there's a good, there's a good leadership and business book. There's so many. I mean, like, I should send you a picture sometime of my. Like I have two completely full bookshelves in this office. I actually have another office that used to be my office downstairs, and I just don't have enough room for all the books. So there's like four shelves of books down there too. I am, I love to read folks who are writing about faith, about, um, spirituality, about. I, for several years, I was really into a lot of the Lean Startup stuff. So I've read a bunch of that, that work. Eric Reese and Alex Osterwalder. I mean, there's so many good authors in that space too. So I follow a lot of people. I don't follow them to the point where all I'm doing is consuming information

Jason: 44:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ann: 44:09

I pay attention to, to what folks are talking about, and I'm always, I always want to be enough of a sponge to be able to receive. Learning and stay curious about things that I don't know yet, or ways of thinking about things that I've not yet thought about.

Jason: 44:25

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, we have to stay sharp that way and think, yeah, follow people who will make us think a little differently. They'll challenge our thinking and, yeah. That's good. No, I appreciate that. That's some, some books I had not heard of before. I was just, you talked about Dr. Cloud and there was one, I'm trying to look at my bookshelf when there's one I haven't heard a lot of people talk about by him. It was, I think it was his book, strong and Weak.

Ann: 44:52

I haven't read that

Jason: 44:53

interesting. Small book. I believe he's the author. I'm looking at my bookshelf right now. I think his name's on there. But anyways,

Ann: 44:59

I think, yeah, the one I'd

Jason: 45:00

I do like him. He's a really, I follow him on LinkedIn too. He's, he's just, yeah, he's, he's like a. Uh, a little bit of a hidden gem I think in, in, uh, people don't understand that. I think maybe that he's a believer. He wrote one of his big books was, um, boundaries. Remember when he wrote, he wrote Boundaries and that went, I mean, that was a really good book. I, I actually bought my wife a copy of that cause yeah, she was frustrated with some things that, that book really was a good

Ann: 45:25

Yeah. I've recommended necessary endings, which is a kind of a. Uh, take a on boundaries to what do you do when you're in a toxic situation? And I've recommended that book to so many people. So Jim, you know, yeah, I did. Jim, Jim, uh, Jim or, uh, John Maxwell is another gem. Like just, yeah. So many good things.

Jason: 45:45

I wrote almost all his,

Ann: 45:47

Yeah. My bookshelf full of those. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason: 45:51

And, and maybe this might have happened to you before. Let's say somebody comes to you and says, Hey Anne, I have got my first opportunity to be a leader, team leader, supervisor, whatever, and I'm gonna buy you a cup of coffee and get your best advice. What would you tell them

Ann: 46:06

So this is what I always tell leaders and, and I've pissed off a couple leaders telling them this. Uh, what I tell them is to shut up.

Jason: 46:13

Yeah.

Ann: 46:14

Shut your mouth. Listen, you need to listen more than you talk. So we used to have a rule at the Garage Group, especially in sales conversations or conversations with prospective clients. The rule was, I called it the 70 30 rule. You listen 70% of the time, you only talk 30%, and that's heavily weighted to the back of the conversation.

Jason: 46:31

Yeah. There you

Ann: 46:32

Ask lots of

Jason: 46:33

That's important.

Ann: 46:34

listen. Listen to somebody else's language. Understand who they are, what their needs are, what their pain points are, and then you pitch your idea, right? So many salespeople just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, and they, they don't actually deliver anything you want. But when you listen it, the, the wisest person in the room is usually the quietest. And so many of us grow up thinking, if I wanna be seen as a great leader, I need to dominate the conversation. And it's just not true.

Jason: 47:02

Yeah, I heard long time ago this dog stuck with me. A guy said, listen, learn, then lead. You know, especially coming into a new team, new situation. That's good.

Ann: 47:12

Yeah. Yeah. You know, in hindsight, Jason, if I'd done a better job of listening in that job in that little company, maybe I wouldn't have gotten fired.

Jason: 47:20

yeah, yeah. Well, and then you wouldn't have started your own company

Ann: 47:24

Yeah, exactly. You know, God uses it all for good. God

Jason: 47:27

He does beauty from ashes. That's what he does. Um, what, uh, what do you hope once you're, once you're done with what you're, whatever God's called you to do full time and retire, quote unquote retire, I don't know what that looks like, but what do you hope would be your legacy that you leave?

Ann: 47:45

Yeah. I mean, I, first of all, I would say I don't know that I will ever. People ask me all the time now, are you retired? No, I'm not retired. Like, and something about the connotation of that word in our society I don't like, but,

Jason: 47:55

I don't like it either. I don't, as believers, I just, I don't know. It's like, oh, I'm not gonna, maybe I shift gears. Maybe I pivot. Pivot. That's a word. Right? But I don't think you should just

Ann: 48:06

Yeah. You know, in,

Jason: 48:07

come to that. Yeah.

Ann: 48:09

the, in the, uh, in the book that's. That I, that I have written that's hopefully coming out in January or so. I, I talk about eight different types of career transitions and the last one I talk about, I call a confident stride and the, the confident stride is the, is the career chapter where you are so confident that you are doing what God called you to do, that it doesn't really feel like work.

Jason: 48:31

Yeah.

Ann: 48:32

where I am. I believe I'm in the confident stride

Jason: 48:35

Yeah.

Ann: 48:35

and I believe that I, I see the impact. Of people becoming more of who God created them to be and finding joy

Jason: 48:44

Yeah.

Ann: 48:45

in, in their work, which most people don't associate work and joy in the same sentence, but they should be.

Jason: 48:51

Well, they should, and I say, I mean, especially in the church, it's so, I think it's a broken viewpoint. It's not a scriptural. Viewpoint, it's not a biblical viewpoint to look at work as a drudgery, as a means to an end. It's not. We're called to work. Work was before the fall. It wasn't a result of the fall. Yeah. That's, uh, that we need to say that more people need to, and again, we have our days, there's times it's seasons of frustration, but God has called us to work. He's equipped us to

Ann: 49:27

Yeah. And he is, and he is gifted us. He's, he's gifted each of us differently and you know, the picture and scripture of the bi of the body. You know, one other thing I was explaining to a prospective client the other day, I said, you know, part of what we gotta figure out is, are you a pinky finger or are you the spleen? Are you the liver? Are you the heart? Are you the nose? Like we all have a part. We all have a part to play. And if you're a nose and you're trying to play the part of the the heart, or if you're a heart and you wanna be a mouthpiece instead, you're not actually gonna find joy. You're just not, and you're not gonna contribute. The same way that God has an opportunity for you to contribute, does it mean that he's gonna spite you and not bless you? No. He's still gonna, he's still gonna bless you. He, he honors when we're, we're trying to be obedient as best we can, but boy, if we could get in touch with, he put these desires in my heart. He put these talents in me. He put these skills in me. And what if I did that? What if that was my job? Instead of trying to put myself into some kind of a mold, and when I see people get there. That to me is okay. That's, that's the work I'm called to do.'cause it really is what we're all called to do, right? It's discipling people, but it's breaking the chains of oppression that we all put on ourselves when it comes to our work, you know? And, and God didn't design us that way. He designed us to have full abundant lives, and he designed us as unique individuals with unique talents and skills and, and roles. So, yeah. I get really excited about what I do. I just love it.

Jason: 50:56

Oh, I love it. You can, I mean, that's, it's possible to, to get up and love what you're gonna do that day and enjoy it. It's, it's, it's right and good for believers to be able to

Ann: 51:07

Yes, totally. Totally.

Jason: 51:09

Uh, and what are some ways, what's the best ways for people to reach out to you if they'd like to get in touch, follow you, contact you? What, how, what's the best way?

Ann: 51:17

So Instagram and LinkedIn. I'm Anne Eileen Thompson and I'll make sure you have links for that. Website is anne eileen thompson.com. Um, and you can get on the list to learn more about the book. I actually have a quiz that you can take about which career transition might be next for you. And since we talked about the six ease of leadership, I'd be happy to. To, uh, send you a link for free download of the six ees of leadership, a little worksheet that people can use, that that would be a great way for people to take that and actually make it practical. So I'll make sure that you have that as well. Um,

Jason: 51:54

will be, uh, in the podcast notes. Yeah, we'll do that. We'll link to your LinkedIn profile and your Yeah, that in, if you send me that in an email, we'll get that in there too, so That's awesome.

Ann: 52:03

it.

52:04

And thank you for listening in again this month. I hope and pray that you are inspired by the show to lead in a Christ honoring way, and that you will be back again next month as we meet another leader striving to honor Christ and their work. I.

Ann: 52:19

I love it. I offer free initial consultations to anybody who wants to talk about is coaching the right thing for me. So welcome anybody to to reach out for that and I'd be thrilled to talk to anybody.

Jason: 52:30

Great. Well, hey, thank you. It's been an absolute joy to get to know you and hear how God has worked in you and is continuing to work in you and through you. So thank you for your time today. I

Ann: 52:40

Thank you. Thank you, Jason. It's been such a fun conversation. I always feel built up and encouraged when I have conversations with other believers who are walking this stuff out day after day.

Jason: 52:49

Indeed, indeed. And I hope that, uh, the listeners feel that same way, so thank you.

Ann: 52:54

absolutely. I.

52:55

And thank you for listening in again this month. I hope and pray that you are inspired by the show to lead in a Christ honoring way, and that you will be back again next month as we meet another leader striving to honor Christ and their work. I.