Biblical Leadership @ Work
A monthly interview with experienced workplace leaders who are serious about their faith in Christ and about being effective leaders. During each episode we learn about the leaders background and experiences and how they employ biblical principles at work, to lead change, develop others, and grow business all while striving to honor Jesus in all that they do. New episodes drop on the first of each month and are about an hour in length.
Biblical Leadership @ Work
Dan Kapenga - Regional Manager & Author
In this episode, host Jason Woodard interviews Dan Kaga, regional manager at Zurich and author of 'How to Live Pure in an Impure World.' Dan discusses his professional journey, the impact of faith on leadership, and his experiences as a foster parent. The conversation highlights key leadership principles like empowering others, maintaining humility, and the importance of integrity in the workplace.
How to Live Pure in an Unpure World book
Be sure to rate and follow our podcast!
Welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast. I'm your host, Jason Woodard. Today I'm super excited to introduce to our guest Dan Kaga. Dan is an experienced finance and insurance professional, currently serving as regional manager at Zurich, where he spent over 12 years helping businesses navigate risk with tailored insurance solutions. Before his role at Zurich, Dan worked as a finance manager at El Heart Automotive, gaining valuable expertise in financial management and client relations. But beyond his professional experience, Dan is also an author and a man deeply committed to biblical principles. His book, how to Live. Pure. In an unpure world, a radical fight against sexual immorality offers practical and faith-driven guidance on pursuing purity. In today's culture, Dan brings a unique blend of business acumen and spiritual insight, making him the perfect guest for today's conversation, where we'll be discussing faith, leadership, integrity in the workplace, and how biblical principles shape our daily decisions. So Dan brother, welcome to the show.
Dan:Thank you. Thank you.
Jason:thanks for joining us. And I, and you know, I'll say too, I didn't even know you were an author until I get, I was started preparing for this. So you came to me as a reference from another one of our guests, Nate Mema, who I just interviewed. You guys are cousins, right?
Dan:Yes we are.
Jason:Yeah. So, so, yeah. So that was cool, um, to find out about you being an author. So we'll talk about that book, but let's, as we always do, when we get started. Dan, tell us a little bit about just kind of professional background. How did you get where you are? How did God lead you up to this point in your life professionally?
Dan:Yeah, yeah. Thanks again for having me, Jason. Uh, so really where I got started is, um, you know, I, I started working in the automotive business very young. I actually started detailing when I was 14 years old. Um, opened a detail business, uh, in my, my dad, mom's actual pole barn when I was 17. Uh, and I just kept, kind of kept, uh, driving forward in the automotive industry. Um, became a salesman for El Hart, uh, back when I was 18 years old. Um, and just worked my way through, uh, you know, the ranks at El Hart. Uh, that was, uh, I, I remember back, you know, opening that detail business. Really kind of paved the way, uh, kind of grinding through learning how to. Create my own business cards brand, brand myself, um, you know, go to a dealership and, you know, let them know about what I did and, uh, where I learned that trade, uh, was a really good start for me. So, um, once I really got through El Hart, um, I started going to college at Davenport University and I commuted. So I went to school. Um, my goal and my dream was to have no debt in college. Uh, I didn't want to have that added stress, so I went all year round and, uh, at the same time, I still worked at Elkhart while I went to college. And that was how I went to college. Went to college debt free. So, um, you know, through, through that time in my life, um, I also got married, uh, to my wife Amanda. Uh, we've married 22 years and, uh, we were, we're high school sweethearts. So, uh, we started dating in my junior year. And so she watched me through the whole transition when I was. Detailing, uh, going to college, summer school, um, all those things where, you know, life was busy, life was crazy. But I'll, when I look at leadership now today, and I, I look at some of my greatest memories. It was back in that crazy time in college when I was, you know, picking up a car, going to school, uh, detailing at my dad's barn, going, going back, dropping it back off at the dealership. You know, again, it was a crazy period, but it was a great period.'cause I learned so much about discipline, persistence, uh, financial responsibility. So, uh, when I was at El Hart, um, again, my goal was just to, uh, prove myself. Um, so I was a salesman. I got promoted in 2004, uh, in the finance department. I worked in the finance department from 2004 to 2012. And, um, you know, really what happened, the reason why I left Elkhart is my wife and I, um, we. We felt God calling us. Um, I'm, I've never heard God speak audibly in my life. I know some people have, I haven't. But we were in a church service and we really felt the Holy Spirit speaking to us at the same time that we should be foster parents. So we, we, we got into the foster, uh, parent. Um, we got our foster license in 2011 and, uh, we left El Hart in 2012 because I just couldn't, um, our marriage couldn't handle two foster kids, our own children. Um, the crazy hours that I worked at El Heart as a finance manager, I was working bell to bell every day, Saturdays nights. Uh, so that's really what happened is we really felt like, uh, how do I be a godly dad? How do I be a godly father? How do I follow this, obey God when he wants us to do fostering and be a finance manager? So that's really what led us down a different path. So, um, kind of a crazy story, but I was at breakfast with a. Competitor, the guy that trained me, uh, and he told me about this opportunity at Zurich. So, uh, he's like, Dan, you'd be the perfect fit. You really need to make, you need to call this contact. And I did. And, you know, one thing led to another, and that's kind of what led me to Zurich. But, um, the Foster, you know, back in 2011 when we decided to obey God, um, and, and get our foster license, that's where everything kind of changed. I would say I was kind of in a rut. I was kind of in a working too many hours allowing my job to be, uh, you know, the verse in the Bible talks about being slave to your lender. I think, I think I really, I think I really allowed work to be my God, um, too much at that time. So, uh, the transition was amazing. And, um, we started, you know, uh, we, we started having kids come in our home, which was a massive blessing, a massive challenge. Uh, we can talk about that more as well. Uh, and then I went, and then I went to Zurich. Where, where I'm at now. I've been there, it'll be 13 years in September. So that's kind of the journey, um, of how it all happened
Jason:I wanna go back real quick to that. When you guys decided to start fostering, had you, so you said you were on a church service and really felt led, had you guys talked much about that up until that moment?
Dan:No, no. So nothing. No. So we, we had, we had our first two children, uh, Malachi and Cora. Malachi's 18. Cora's 16. Uh, we have five kids, ages 18 down to age six. Um, and our, uh, after we had our first two children, we were told medically that we really shouldn't have any more children. So, um, a couple years later, we just felt in this church service, we both felt God, that we felt, felt the pole, we felt the Holy Spirit really talking to us. And that's kind of where that led.
Jason:that's amazing. That's amazing. Um, yeah, I mean, my wife and I at one point talked about it when we were struggling to have our third and we didn't pursue it. But certainly I've, I have a very close friend. He and his wife have fostered five, adopted three of those five, and working on adopting the, the, the remaining two. And it's, uh, been in incre. I mean, it's such a, well, I don't wanna say it's, it's such a quick change in your life. I don't wanna say a disruption'cause that sounds too negative, but I mean, you know, all of a sudden you have. Whatever amount of kids or no kids, and then all of a sudden the next day you've got two or three. And, um, yeah, definitely. It's a calling. I mean, it's a, yeah, I just, I even just as another story, I have a lady I serve on a board with who's, um, who older than me or her and her husband are older than me and they're fostering two or three young kids. And I'm like, what a, I mean, they're called to do it and you have to be, because it's a huge challenge. Um, especially, I mean, they're, yeah, they're not young people anymore. I mean, and so that makes it even more difficult, you know, uh, to, to do that. So praise the Lord for that calling on your guys' life. So you have, so still a full house right now. We usually talk a little bit about family, you and your wife and, uh, the children. Are they all, so they're all still home.
Dan:Yeah. Yeah. So Mal, Malachi, uh, is gonna be going to college, uh, in August to Camp Ville University in Kentucky, um, to wrestle. And then we have, uh, so Malachi is our oldest, uh, Cora is 16, then Rena is 11. Um, those three are biological children, and then Dolly and Damien, uh, they are, um, they, um, we adopted them in 2021, so, um, through Foster. So we both, we fostered both of'em. And, uh, just an amazing journey, a tough journey. Um, but yeah, so, so that's kind of how that went.
Jason:so it, one of the things I always do at the end, Dan, is make sure that people know how to connect with you. So I would just say, you know, who knows? There's a, I'm sure there's people who've thought about or praying about fostering, adopting. So, we'll, uh, yeah, you, you could offer some words of wisdom, I'm sure, in that you and your wife. So we'll make sure.
Dan:Yeah, we definitely could. Yeah. We've had, it is really cool. My, my brother, um, you know, so we, we started, got our license in 2011. My brother and his wife, they got into, involved in the fostering, uh, got a foster license and then my sister-in-law, April and Matt and, and brother-in-law they did as well. So it kinda, it's a community thing and it's amazing how God u has used our family, uh, in that ministry. It's been been incredible.
Jason:yeah. Praise the Lord for what he's doing there. Hey Dan. Let's talk about your faith a little bit. How did you come to know the Lord? You know, was you raised in a Christian home or was it something later in life? What's that look like?
Dan:Yeah. So, um, my, you know, my story, um, is when I was seven years old, my mom and I were on the couch in our living room and, uh, you know, we went to church. Uh, my mom and dad, um, raised us in a Christian home. Uh, we went to Central Wesleyan in Holland, Michigan. And, um, at seven years old, I, she did the prayer with me on the couch. She explained what it was, she explained the why. Um, I, I understood, I understood what I was doing. Um, I don't know that I completely, uh, gathered it, but I, I knew exactly what we were doing. And so that's when I accepted Jesus. When I was a sophomore in high school. Uh, you might've heard of Dan Seaborne, but, uh, Dan Seaborne was at our church for a Super Bowl halftime. Uh, service, uh, when I was a sophomore in high school and he asked about recommitting your life to Christ, and he talked about not being a lukewarm c Christian and what does it mean to really fully love Jesus? What does it mean to fully follow Jesus? So I feel like before that time, I was kind of checking the box. I was kind of just, uh, you know, doing the motions, uh, not really living for Jesus. And so that's when it really changed. That's when I really made the, uh, full charge towards, uh, you know, walking each day towards Jesus. Yeah. So
Jason:So what are your, Dan now? So you're super busy, dad, obviously husband, uh, manager, uh, mentor. I know you're a mentor to men. What are your spiritual disciplines, Dan? What do you do to continue to grow in sanctification with the Lord and stay sharp spiritually?
Dan:Yeah. Uh, several, several things, but I would say a couple things that, uh, that I do, um, on a regular basis. Number one, I'm going through the. The year Bible plan right now. So, um, this mor this morning I was in the Book of Job, and so that is a huge, uh, motivation for me. Um, I've done it several times, but, uh, so that's a big deal, reading the Bible every day. Um, and then the other one is I'm in an accountability group. Um, and about 19 years ago, I got asked to mentor a guy Matt brought, and then that led into, uh, four or five guys that we've been going Every two weeks they, we go to a different house, um, and we read the Bible together. We pray together, we talk about our life, we talk about our journey. We really walk side by side, uh, through the challenges of life together. We've been doing that for 19 years. Uh, the same, the same guys. Uh, we've rotated a couple in and out, but for the most part, the core men of that group have, has never changed. And I can tell you, we've watched each other go through amazing things. We've watched each other go through really challenging things, deaths in the family. Uh, a addiction, you, you name it. We've, we've fought hard together. And, uh, that has been a massive discipline because every two weeks I got guys asking me, Hey, Dan, how you doing in your purity? Hey Dan, are you looking at, are you looking at anything that you shouldn't? How are you doing in your prayer life? So that's big. And then the last thing would be my cousin, Nate and I, about four years ago, decided to hold each other accountable every week. So every Monday morning at eight 30, we, again, we, we talk about our walk, we talk about our prayer life, and, uh, we talk about what we're doing every day. So those are things that, uh, have really transformed my discipline to be, to be more like Jesus. So I would say, uh, those are the three things that I would, I'd really, um, you know, I share.
Jason:yeah. What, Dan, tell me a little bit more about the, the group that you've met with so long. Like how many guys are in that roughly?
Dan:So right now we have, um, right now we have. Uh, five of us. Uh, we've had four, four to five of us the entire 19 years. And yeah, so we, we get together every two weeks. The first half hour, 45 minutes is every person will share, you know, where are you in life right now? How are you doing in your walk with God? Um, is there any challenge? Is there anything that we need to hold you accountable for? So that's really the first 45 minutes to an hour. And then from there, we read the Bible together. We talk about, uh, right now we're going through a study called Practicing the Way by John Mark Comar, where we're talking about how do we, how do we grow close, closer to God through that study? Um, and that changes every year. Um, sometimes, we'll, we go through the Book of Proverbs, sometimes we'll go through a different psalm. Uh, we'll go through the book of Romans so it changes, uh, each and every season. But, uh, that's kind of what we do. Um, and again, the same core group has never changed. And, uh, that, that has just blessed my life so, so
Jason:um, I'm sure, yeah. It's incredible. You've been together that long. I, I'm, I don't remember who it was. There was someone else I had on my podcast and they similar long running group and they do, uh, remote'cause they don't live near each other. Do you guys go to the same church or different churches?
Dan:different churches, uh, three of us go to the same church, uh, and then the other two go to different churches. But, um, yeah, we we're from the same community. Um, we, we all, we, three of us graduated from the same school. Um, actually four of us graduated from the same school and the other one did not. But, uh, yeah, it's been been a big blessing to my life. So.
Jason:That's amazing. Yeah. Good for you. Hey, let's talk a little bit about leadership, Dan. Um. As a leader, like what are the things that you go back to the foundations of your leadership style? What are the, you know, kind of key principles that you always go back to?
Dan:Yeah. Yeah. I would say, um, number one would be, um, empowering others. Um, when I was a, a new manager, I remember the first three months as a new manager. I remember talking to my mentor about this, but I felt like I was trying to be Superman. I was trying to just run everywhere, anywhere and just, you know, conquer the world, conquer my job, conquer whatever problem there was. I had the solution. I, I could be anywhere, everywhere I could answer the phone at any time of the day. And, uh, I just remember feeling so exhausted and feeling so, like, I, I wasn't accomplishing anything. I was, I was just trying to, uh, be the fixer. Um, so I always go back to empowering others. Uh, number one where I wanna be able to delegate the right things. I want to be able to delegate the right approaches. Uh, and then number two is I think, you know, the right form of communication and accountability, um, for me. Transparent, transparency and communication is everything. If my team, if the people group I'm leading doesn't know the why, doesn't know, uh, the what, um, really how are we gonna be successful. So for us, that transparency has been really, really big. But I think allowing them to, you know, like I said, how I failed at trying to conquer everything. I think where I really grew and where I've really learned is that when I, when I can allow to trust them to do it, um, but to support them and encourage them, and to challenge them, that's where we've really grown so, so much. Um, and I, I'll talk about this a little later, but I went through a book series with our, with a team that I lead called, uh, extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink.
Jason:Yeah, I know that
Dan:Yeah, great. Great book. And Jocko's just incredible. And, uh, we've watched a lot of YouTube videos with him. Uh, we've also gone through this book with him and that, that book really allowed our team to really. Again, empowering others. Um, how can each person be successful? Not, not how can I be successful, but how can I help support them, encourage them? Uh, so those would be really the first two, empowering others. And then that, that transparency. But then the last one would be, uh, the accountability, uh, piece. You know, in my career I've watched, I think that's the, the area that I've watched so many managers and so many leaders where it's like, okay, if I'm gonna be a, if I'm gonna hold someone accountable, I'm gonna yell at'em. I'm gonna degrade'em. I'm gonna, I'm going to micromanage them. And so I think the approach I've tried to take is how do I love them with accountability? Um, I don't need to yell at'em. I don't need to micromanage'em, but I can ask a really good question and hold'em accountable, right? I can be a, have a loving question, a loving approach, a loving tone, and still hold them accountable. And I think that's where I. My mentor and I have really talked a lot about that topic, a lot about that approach. And I think that's where, not that I've mastered it at all, Jason, but I think I've really grown, I really have an ability now with my team to, if I ask a question the right way, uh, it's amazing the response I'll get. And it's amazing how they wanna run through a wall for me. I wanna run through a wall for them. And, um, you know, I really learned that from my dad. I really learned from watching him bleed. And, uh, so that's what I would say is my core principles right there.
Jason:I want to, that's, those are, those are really, really good. I want to dig in a little bit more on the empowerment side. I agree with it. One thing. I think that leaders, well, I think it's very common for new leaders to struggle with that and maybe even some seasoned leaders. And I think the first thing that pops into our head is, I can't trust this person to do this. They're gonna fail. We're gonna fail. And I, I struggled with that. I've struggled with it. Talk a little bit about how do you, how have you personally as a manager, balanced, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give this person empowerment, I'm gonna give'em enough rope, but at the end of the day, I know as the team leader, the group leader, I'm responsible for the outcome. So I can't let us fail catastrophically, but I, but I can let this person struggle and fail a little bit. Like, you know, that safety net is how I think about I'm gonna, you know, it gets away from micromanagement, but you also can't be completely hands off and say, well this person. This person failed. And so it's really their fault. What you're as the manager, you own it still. So talk a little bit about, you know, do you, how do you, how do you balance that? Because I know that's a struggle that people, uh, work through.
Dan:it, it definitely is a struggle and it's a definitely a struggle in leadership to know that fine balance. But for, for me, what I, I would say, to answer that question, Jason, that um, I had a recent hire about a year ago where. Uh, I think this is a really good example. Uh, and I could just see that this person that I hired was really overwhelmed. I had given them a lot of, you know, teaching and coaching and training. Hey, this is how you do it. This is what you're gonna do. Um, here's your territory. These are the customers and here's your prospects. All, all of those details. And then I kinda, I kinda, um, gave some space and said, okay, I'm gonna let them breathe. I'm gonna let them do their job. I'm gonna let them really start to learn. And I think one big part of it is failure is part of success, right? You have to fail. You have to fail if you're gonna succeed. So, um, I allowed him a lot of space and I could, I remember, uh, I had to go to Toledo for any event, and I could just tell that when I was on the phone with him that he was just at his breaking point and I needed to, I needed to jump in the boat with him and help him, or, um, it, it, you know, for that analogy. So I, um, I drove down to Toledo. I gave him a call and said, Hey, let's go ahead. Let's meet for breakfast. Uh, tomorrow morning, and he's like, all right, that sounds good. And we sat for like three hours and I just supported him. I listened to him. I didn't fix anything for him, but I was just there, uh, to, to listen, to hear him out. He talked about how overwhelmed he was. He talked about how he didn't realize, uh, you know, how, um, much some of these tasks would be. And I just, and I just listened. So I think, you know, I think the balance is, uh, you don't wanna step in. The mistake I made in this first year of, of a leadership was I would've, I would've went and fixed it for'em, right? I would've, I would've just done the task for'em. And I think that's the error leaders, leaders make is even, even when they're overwhelmed, even when they're at their breaking point, uh, going in and just doing it for'em is actually making it worse, not better. And I think that's where I, I. When I met with him in Toledo and we met for breakfast. He actually brought this up the other day to me. He's like, Hey, remember when we were in Toledo at breakfast? I'm like, yeah, I do. Um, he's like, man, that was so awesome. It was so great that we just sat there and we just talked. And he cared so much that I drove and I met with him and I listened to him and I cared for him. And that's, that's, hopefully that's what you get out of it, is, you know, the, the, the, the balance is, um, that you're there and you support, but you don't fix, uh, every time. Um, and I, I know that that's an area that I've had to really, um, look at the mirror and really self-reflect myself.'cause that's where I probably made the most mistakes. And, uh, that's where I've really grown.
Jason:Yeah, jumping in too early. Jumping in too early and taking over. I think that support is huge. Letting people know that you understand and you're supporting them. And I've, you know, I've told my team, especially when you have someone new as your example, you're not really, everybody ramps up at a different speed. And so I've tried to, you know, give new people plenty to do. I don't want him to be bored, but also say, Hey, if you get overwhelmed, like, let me know. I don't want you to just be struggling and be overwhelmed and not say anything.'cause I can, yeah, I can help in some ways. I can listen. Possibly, um, you know, pull back some of that work. But No, that's good. I think that's huge. Um, the other piece you talked about on that accountability, it's funny, Nate, Nate and I, your cousin talked about that very same thing and how you can, you should, you must as a Christian leader, uh, be able to hold people accountable in still a loving way. And you know, that's to, to do both.'cause really, you think about our children, right? I mean, you're a dad of many children and it's the same model that we, we, we hold'em accountable because we love'em. Not'cause we're angry at'em. And, you know, when we, when we hold accountable and anger, that's not right, that's sinful and we do it. I mean, it's something we have to be on guard about, but coming alongside somebody. And I think that a frustration that I, I know I get and people get in the accountability piece is if they weren't clear on the expectations. Like, you're holding me accountable for something I didn't really understand you expected of me. And so. Yeah, that's important that we're reiterating clear expectations with people all the time, so there's no surprise. I know. Again, it's, you know, something that'll frustrate anyone. Super quickly on that, when you were a young leader, you talked a little bit about this, Dan, already. Maybe it's on the, this, this piece we just, uh, discussed, but like, what was the biggest struggle that you had as a young leader? Have you overcome it? Have you worked through it? You know, do you still have to manage it or have you just like had total victory over whatever that was?
Dan:Yeah. Um, yeah, I did kind of already speak about it, but I, I would say, um, we did a survey recently, um, where our Zurich hired a, hired an outside source to do a, a coaching survey with our team. So every single one of my, um, employees, uh, got a survey and they had to answer questions about does Dan micromanage? How is he as a leader? Um, I mean, a lot of really, really tough questions. I remember when we got the results back, I was watching. I was with all the leaders at the same time. When we got the results, I was watching body language. I was watching the way people reacted. And when I looked at those results and I saw scores of, you know, uh, one of my worst scores that I received as a leader was micromanagement. Um, I got some really high scores, but I got some low scores in micromanagement. And, and then at the very bottom there's comments about why they chose those answers. And when I read the comments, um, I had to really prepare myself and go, okay, okay, God, how am I gonna handle this negativity? Am I going to let it bring me down? Am I gonna let it bring me up? Am I gonna respond well? And I remember when I read the comments, one of'em was, uh, that exact thing I talked about. I was trying to be Superman. I was trying to conquer the whole world. And one of the comments was one of my employees said, Dan, um, you're trying to do too much. You're trying to fix too much. Do too much. And. I just remember reading that and having to kind of take a couple deep breaths and go, okay, how am I gonna respond to this? Right. What am I gonna do? And that's, uh, that's where I really drew, right. I talked about failure being part of success, and I've made some many mistakes as a leader, and that's one of the mistakes, greatest mistakes I've made is trying to conquer too much. So, um, that survey was so powerful because I think some of the leaders in that room responded differently. Some of'em reacted differently. And the way I responded was I did individual calls with each one of my teammates and I shared my results and I said, Hey, I want to talk about the results that I received on this survey. So I shared'em and then I shared with'em my plan going forward, what am I gonna do about it? Um, how am I gonna respond? Uh, so that's really what I did. And, um, I would say one other area I would like to touch on with it is I. You know, it's not, it is not just, you know, the weakness, you know, I'm trying to conquer too much. I'm trying to do too much, but it's also on a daily basis. Um, you know, I think my team's gonna wanna run through a wall for me if I have humility. And I really didn't talk in leadership principles that much about humility, but I think humility can be lost in leadership because it's like, oh, he's too nice, he's too kind. He's, he, he needs to be more direct. And I was told in every interview, uh, when I tried to be getting into management back early in my career, you're too nice, Dan. You're too nice. You're gonna get, you're gonna get, uh, eaten up in the, in the management world. You're gonna get eaten up in the leadership world. And it's actually done the opposite. I've grown and I've gotten, you know, more awards and more accolades because of my humility, not the opposite. And I think, I think having a humble approach doesn't mean you're gonna lose. Having a humble approach. You can also hold people accountable. You can also encourage, you can also care, but you can also challenge. And uh, so I think that was a weakness, but it also was a strength. Yeah.
Jason:Yeah, it always reminds me of a, a book that I read last year, I think it's called Radical Candor, and it just talks about, it's really speaking the truth in love. This is not a book written by a. Professing Christian. It's not, um, you know, there's no scripture. And I would tell you it's based on a biblical truth. And that is speaking the truth and love, the really good book that talks about these things that, you know, that honesty, that radical candor of, we're gonna be honest, but not in a, a demeaning or negative, uh, way with people. Uh, so they know where they stand and, you know, it's, it's the right thing. It's the right thing to do. In fact, and I've had this conversation with myself and I've had it with other leaders, that when you're not, you know, you, your excuse sometimes is, well, I, you know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna hurt their feelings, or I don't wanna, well, what it really is, is you don't wanna have that difficult conversation. You know, it's a pride issue. You don't want it, it's, it's you, you don't wanna have the difficult conversation. It's the right thing to do. Um, and you can't excuse yourself, uh, out of it. Uh, Dan, so you work in a, uh, you're working in a secular environment like I do. Um, but you're a strong believer. Like what are some things that you do in your work to honor Christ through your work practically? How do you, how do you try to do that?
Dan:yeah. Um, I would say number one is I try to make God a part of everything I do. Every conversation, uh, every meeting. Um, you know, I, it, it was crazy. I, we have, um, you know, secular meetings that we do all the time, um. And we were at a meeting recently where, um, another leader came up to me and said, Hey, Dan, would you lead, would you lead us in prayer before dinner? Uh, we were at a restaurant, we were at a public event. Uh, and I said, yeah, I'd love to. And I was a little surprised by the ask. I was like, wow. Uh, but it was really cool. And I've had, I've been asked to do that multiple times at multiple, multiple different events and venues. And so I think, I think the reason I was asked is because I don't hide my faith at work. Right? I don't try to go to work. I don't try to be on a call. Uh, I think sometimes as Christians, we can try to be, uh, following Jesus on Sunday and worshiping, and, you know, our hands are in the air and we're, we're very vocal about it. But then when we're at work, it's like, that's a different, you know, life. Right? And I, I, I try to, I try to, I don't try to be, you know, over vocal or try to shout my faith, but I try to live it out by the example I set with everything I do. So. If I'm talking, if someone asks me about my family or my weekend, I'm talking about my faith. I'm talking about, uh, you know, that's, that's my life. So I would say, uh, that's the first part. And then the other one is like the integrity piece. Jason. I mean, I think, uh, don't you think that integrity speaks volumes about our faith? I mean, I think that the, the decisions that I make, you know, the gray area in leadership of, Hey, do I do this or do I or do I, do I say yes to this? And I know it's in the gray area. I know it could be right, it could be wrong. I could justify it. I think that speaks volumes about our faith as well. Um, I'm, I'm fortunate at Zurich to be part of a, they have a faith-based platform called Good News. So every week, on Wednesday morning, I'm on a Bible study with, uh, about 12 other people at work, uh, which is just incredible and amazing. And then they have a platform where there's bible verses. There's. Uh, worship service. There's all kinds of things that are posted on a daily basis. Um, so I'm really blessed that at work I'm worship, worshiping God at work because I'm a part of a platform that work has put on and sponsored. So, uh, I'm very grateful for that and I'm very grateful that Zurich allows me to express my faith through good news and express my faith through. I was able, I got asked to share my testimony through good news about a year and a half ago. And so I was on a road trip, um, up in Traverse City and I was actually sharing my testimony on my phone, on my car because that's all I could access at technology at the time. Um, and whoever else was on that call from Zurich with good news, heard my testimony and talked about my struggle with lust when I was a teenager and my book and all that stuff. So, um, those are the ways that I really try to connect with people at work. Um, and just by, you know, being really true to myself, um. With my faith, and like I said, living it out every day, not just over the weekend. I think that is really key.
Jason:Yeah. I thi I really appreciate what you said about it just comes out because it's who you are and you know, like you said with someone, you very common conversation on Monday is, Hey, how was your weekend? Or on Friday, what's your plans for the weekend? And. also would share that, you know, that's, it's just gonna come out because it's such a part of your life, your faith and your, your, your, your church relationships and activities that you're doing. Hey, Monday night I go to men's group, so yeah, that's just gonna come out. Well, I'm going to hang out with some guys from my church tonight. And for, I think for me, I wonder if you would say the same thing is, you know, once that people know who you are as a whole person, they know that Dan, or they know that Ja, you know, Jason, they're active in their faith, they're Christians. Okay. That, that's been established. And then now I feel a higher level of accountability to myself and the Lord for when I do things at work that aren't Christ-like. And I just am convicted of that.'cause I'm like, okay, these people know that I'm a professing Christian. All of them, because, you know, I've been there and just like you said, it just comes out. I'm not, not because I'm proselytizing and out trying to convert people, although if that conversation comes up, we'll have it. But then the, the additional, I would say, conviction for me of man, you know, I, whatever I acted like, I sh you know, in a, in a sinful way, essentially at work because of what I said or what I did. And I'm like, man, these people, you know, how's that? How does that, that dishonors the Lord? And it's like a once once that's been made public. And if you're living your faith in that way and working in a way that's just, you're open to who you are, there's that additional accountability I feel, for me at least.
Dan:Definitely, definitely a hundred percent. I think, I think that, you know, we talked about the gray area, and I think as leaders, you know, I, I travel in my job, um, and so I said this to my wife a long time ago. I said, you really find really, truly who you are when you're in a hotel, when you're away from your family in another city, in another country. And it's like. Who are you when you're in Chicago or Texas or Europe, when your family's home and you really, are you living out, are you making the right decisions? Are you going out too late? And what, what are you acting like around the people that you're with?
Jason:And yeah, nobody, yeah, nobody there. And even I'll say that the travel, because I, I don't travel a ton for work, but I have over the years and you know, there's times you're in a city and even not with anyone from your, that you work with, you're just, because you're going to a conference or whatever, and it's like, who are you when there's no one there, no human eyes to hold you accountable, and it's just you and the Lord. Yeah. That's huge.
Dan:Yeah. Nate, Nate and I both travel for our, our jobs. And so we, that, that is a conversation we talk about all the time, about who are we, who are we in a hotel? Who are we in another city versus who are we at home? And if my wife saw me in a work environment, who, what would she say? What would she, what would she see? And so I think those challenging questions really are important when you really talk about our faith, um, you know, in, at the workplace. It's really big. So, um, yeah, I, I did an event recently where I was at work and, um, you know, I had a really kind of test myself. I was out late with a group of people and, um, I had, I had to go, okay, how am I gonna be? Jesus? You know, sometimes at work there's, there's drinking, there's, uh, not, not saying that there's, you know, craziness happening, but, you know, in, in that world that can happen. And so I just re I, I try to really, um, be godly in those situations and I really try to look at how do I, um, even though maybe, um, even though maybe at that situation I'm not, you know, asking someone to talk about my testimony, right? I can still be Jesus in that situation. And that's really a really, I think that's where I shine the most is. In those situations, I think I can really, uh, love them, listen to them, um, and really be, be Christlike, uh, you know, even in a secular situation. Yeah.
Jason:I've had two times I've had an opportunity that I was very glad to have, um, to where somebody I worked with started coming to church, to my church and I'm like, man, this person's seeing me in all the areas, and it really makes you think, am I being. You know, is there integrity? Is there true integrity there?'cause now this person, you know, and again, these two, these two men, uh, have also been at my house. We're friends now. We don't work together now, but we have off and on a couple times. So they see me at church, they see me at work, you know, they see me in my home and I'm like, these guys really know who I am. And you know, they, yeah, they've, they've stayed with me. So that's good. They must see some level of integrity and I'm thankful for that. So that's good. Hey Dan, I wanna talk a little bit about, uh, leadership. Like, how do you stay sharp there? Who do you read? Who do you follow? Is there podcasts? I always like to, uh, you know, find out about new resources that, uh, other godly leaders are using to, to keep themselves sharp in that area. So who do you got for us?
Dan:Yeah, I, I mentioned earlier, jock of Willink and Extreme Ownership. Um, I would EI would encourage, um, doing a, I think, um, having a, uh, book study with your team. Um, I've done it a couple times now and I think, um, I think it can be ineffective, but I think if you look at your approach and do it, you know, if you really look at how are you gonna approach this, it can be very, very effective. So we did, as I mentioned, we did, uh, the extreme ownership and we read one chapter a week. It's not a really large book, but it's a very powerful book. And then we review each chapter every week with our team. And talk about different areas that we thought it could relate to our team and relate to the progress of the culture. Where does this book relate to the culture of our team? So that one was really, really, really important. Um, and then servant leader. Um, I think that's another one. Um, if I look at, uh, podcast, uh, Craig, Rochelle has a leadership podcast. And I would say out of all the podcasts I listen to, it's like every single sentence I wanna stop, pause, and write down. I wanna write down every word that he says.'cause it's just so good. It's like, it's like Craig, I think Craig really understands with all of, uh, his ministry and what he's done in his career and how much he's grown life church, it's like he really understands, uh, working with people, the highs, the lows, the challenges. So I would say those would be, um, the biggest ones. And then I. Uh, Nate told me about on a Christian, uh, biblical side, he told me about John Mark Comer, um, practicing the way. Have you heard of that one? Practicing the Way?
Jason:Well, just from Nate, I hadn't before.
Dan:before. Okay. Yeah. So practicing the way about being a disciple of Jesus, um, I think that one is probably the most powerful, uh, thing I've gone through recently. Um, I'm not all the way through it right now, but it's really about how do you be a disciple of Jesus? Um, how do you be more like Jesus each and every day, um, not just as a leader, but in all aspects of your life. So, um, I'm, Nate already went through it. I'm in the middle of it right now. Um, we're actually going through it with our, with my core accountability group. And, um, it's talking about solitude. It's talking about your prayer life. It's talking about, you know, all the different things that we should be thinking of on a weekly, monthly basis, um, to be a disciple of Jesus. So that's been really, really good. Um, I've, I've really enjoyed
Jason:that's a book that you're going through, like a workbook.
Dan:Yeah, it's a workbook. They have practice in the way.org. They have, um, all kinds of, there's a spiritual survey where they, a spiritual aptitude test where they'll ask you a series of like 50 questions of where are you on your spiritual journey? And then each week they talk about a different way to be a disciple of Jesus. Um, so practice in the way has been, I think, I think John Mark did a really good job of kind of breaking it down to the basics of, you know, believing in Jesus. Um, so that's been really, really, uh, powerful as well. So those would be the things that for sharpening my faith. Um, yeah.
Jason:So let's talk a little bit about, we've hit on your book a couple times, but I do wanna give you a chance to, I would like to understand what, what drove you to do to write a book at all, and on that topic, and like, what's that experience been like? And a little bit about the book as well. So tell us about that.
Dan:Yeah. So, um, I struggled with, uh, in fifth grade. Fifth grade was the first time that I was exposed to porn. Um, and so I struggled on and off through my teenage years, uh, when I was a sophomore in high school. Um, I'll never ever forget this, um, but my sophomore in high school, I was, uh, I got home from school and I was looking at porn, um, at my house, uh, as a 16-year-old kid. And my brother, uh, went into the house. He got home from school as well, and he went on the history and the computer and he saw what I was looking at and he challenged me and said, Dan, what are you doing? What are you looking at? And I kind of just got really quiet. And my dad was a lieutenant, uh, with the road division, uh, police officer and my dad. I see. The police car pull into our driveway. Um, my dad got home from work, so I see my dad walk in in his uniform and my brother's like, dad, we need to talk. Dan was, uh, you know, made a big mistake. So we went into our living room. My dad's like, what did you, you know, I broke down. Um, and my dad was like, you know, what did you do? What did you look at? So that was kind of my, my first stopping point to going, oh my gosh, what am I doing? What is this? How is this disrupting my life? So, um, I'm so thankful that my brother caught me and I'm so thankful that my dad pulled in when he did. It's amazing how God works and it's amazing how God moves. And so that was the starting point of my journey to, um, I didn't start writing the book obviously then, but fast forward to getting married. Um, I was in, um, you know, premarital counseling and I probably should have been more aggressive on. The way that I approached, uh, my struggle with lust and I, I should have done a better job. So I kind of brought lust into my marriage where it wasn't completely gone. I, it was still a problem. It wasn't an everyday problem, but it was a problem that it didn't go away. It didn't, I didn't, I didn't deal with it the right way. So, um, when I got married, um, my friend and I were lifting weights. Uh, he was my best friend, uh, Scott. And, uh, he, he said, Dan, you don't seem like yourself. You seem like you've just been struggling lately. You just seem like you have a lot on your mind. And I kind of opened up to him, just said, man, I've dealt with loss since fifth grade. I've kind of been, you know, I, I, I'm struggling with it. I'm not struggling with it. Uh, he's like, dude, you gotta figure this out. This is, this is not okay. Does your wife know about it? I'm like, well, yes and no. So that is really where, um, you know, kind of, it kind of, everything kind of stopped. Um, I shared with my wife. The struggle was more than what I really told her. I shared with her that it was really an addiction. Um, I started to get help. We went to counseling. I went to counseling, and I just felt, I told my dad, I just felt like my dad and mom, that I just felt like God calling me to write about it. Um, I felt like God was saying, I kept saying back to God, I'm not a writer. I, I don't know how to write. And, and, and God kept saying, well, I want you to write. I want you to write about it. So I made a commitment to God for a year that I would, uh, spend an hour a day writing about it. So I woke up at an hour earlier every day. I woke up at 4:35 AM and I wrote for an hour every day for a year. And that's what created my book, um, is that that daily discipline for writing for an hour every day. So, um, that's kind of how the book came to be. And, um, I've, you know, just really grateful that, uh, I was, you know, disciplined enough to actually follow through and do it. And, um, you know, I'm grateful my dad said, Dan. No matter how confident or unconfident you are as a writer, if you can change one life through this book, uh, if you can obey God and change one life, that's what matters. And so I'm really grateful that I did it. There's been a lot of opportunity that's come from it, um, with just trying to, you know, so many guys call me and say, Hey, Dan, can, can I share with you, um, my, my journey? And what's really gonna shock you, Jason, is I spoke recently at a youth event and, you know, everybody thinks that just guys struggle with this issue, right? It's a, it's a teenage boy thing. It's not. And so I had, um, I had three teen, I had three teenage, you know, 15 to 18 year, year age women come up to me and tell me about their struggle because it's so rampant nowadays with technology and your phone, social media, Instagram, Facebook, uh, Snapchat. So, uh, that's why I wrote the book. And I really feel like God's called me. I. Till the day I die, to really try to help men, women with this issue, and to be vocal about it and to really be bold about it. So I try to be bold and I try to be vocal about how, uh, it's so damaging to your brain. It's so damaging to your body, and, uh, it's very toxic on what it does to your attitude. My attitude towards my wife is the greatest thing that changed with, with porn, the way I treated her, the way I talked to her, the way I reacted to her. And I'm ashamed of it. But I'm really thankful that God has used me as a tool and as a ve uh, as a vessel for him through my failure and through my struggle. So that's what I would share about my book.
Jason:No, I appreciate that. Uh, Dan, we will link to the book, I'm guessing Ken or Amazon, he's, I can link to it right on Amazon and I'll
Dan:You can. Yep. Um.
Jason:when you said it might surprise me about some of the younger ladies, I recently read an article and I'm, I wish I could remember where it was and I cannot. It was, it was eye-opening article about, um, I was it Gallup, somebody. Man, I wish I could remember now, but somebody has done a, you know, a legit social survey in the last couple of years. I almost wanna say it's Gallup. It was, it was a, it was a, it was a well-known, um, surveyor, I think, I think it was Gallup, but forgive me for not knowing. It was a fascinating article. The statistics were, when I say fascinating, were, uh, really, they were shocking because what, basically what I got from it, um, was the amount of young women now that are the percentage of young women and we're talking Yeah, late teens, early twenties, you know, into the thirties, whatever generation. They, and they bucketed it by generation, and I'm not an expert in that. Don't, I don't remember what generation that is now, but of that, that generation now that's increasingly more, um, you know, when they have an anonymous survey that they're answering. Yeah. I mean, I, I view porn on a regular basis. Uh, certainly I wasn't surprised the the men because I know that's a real issue and has been for a long time.
Dan:Mm-hmm.
Jason:Um, with a, with, with men. I mean, that's a problem and it's, unfortunately, it's very easy to, you know, hide. It's easy to access. I wor I have two boys. I have two boys and the one daughter that I've raised. And I worry that's one of the probably the biggest things, uh, that I worry about with my two boys and the, you know, how it can impact your, your spiritual walk and your relationship. So, yeah, it's a huge problem. So I think that's, um, just a, a giant amount of courage for you to, uh, have written that book and talk about it. And so again, we'll link, we'll link to the book. We're gonna let people know how they can get ahold of you, uh, for encouragement. There's another, um, a gentleman I had on the podcast, uh, over a year ago, and actually he's a mutual friend of mine and Nate's that, um, shared some similar experiences and has done a lot of things from a ministry standpoint, uh, to help men in that area. So. Yeah. So thank you for, uh, thank you for sharing that.
Dan:Yeah, no problem.
Jason:but yeah, it's become, it's, it, it's, it's becoming a bigger problem, I guess, is what I'll say. And I, and I'm really, I'm hopeful and prayerful that even you can't legislate this out, but it is, I was just listening yesterday to a news podcast, a Christian news source I listened to, and it was a commentator and he was, you know, discussing how, um, we put so many restriction, age restrictions, identification restrictions on so much, like, you can't go buy alcohol, right? You can't go buy cigarettes and all these things that are good that we legislate. And yet anyone with any mobile device at any age can go access very, very deadly, deadly, uh, poison. I mean, it, it is, and it's just, it's just it, a society. I, I pray that we'll at least begin to. I'd love to see it be illegal, honestly. I mean, I'd love to see it just be out already legal, if people really understood the social, the social impact, the negative social impact it has, it's having on people. Um, but at least to push back a little.
Dan:yeah. One of the chapters that I write about in there, Jason, is, uh, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt
Jason:No, go for it.
Dan:one of the chapters I write about is radical awareness, and you just, you just hit on it. But, uh, you know, I have a, I have a sophomore, I have a senior. Um, I have kind of all ages down to six. And, and I remember my son, Malachi, when he was, uh, like 10 years old. I was already talking to him about it because, I don't know if you knew this, but the, the average age is struggle is already third grade. Third grade. They're already getting exposed. Because you, you, yeah. You just said it like they're on, they're on their mom and dad's phone and they can access YouTube, they can access and, you know, all these inappropriate videos, all these inappropriate shows. Um, so I just think the earlier, and I talk about my book, but I think the earlier that we can talk about, about it with our kids, the earlier that we can expose it, um, sometimes parents look at, oh, I, I wanna hide'em from it. Um, and I think that I, I encourage to do the opposite. I encourage to expose it, to talk about it. Um, my daughter's actually, my daughter Rena in fifth grade is actually at a purity week with my, with my wife right now. She's, she's there, um, my wife and I are doing a mother-daughter purity weekend where they're actually talking with a group of people, uh, at Marina in Muskegon, all about purity and all about, um, all that topic. And my daughter's in fifth grade and she's already, you know, at an event for that, um, that exact thing. So I think it's just really cool that we're talking about it now because. It is not a, uh, it's not a Holland Michigan issue. It's a worldwide pro. It's a worldwide, worldwide, uh, problem.
Jason:Yeah, it is. Absolutely. Um, last, uh, question, so to say, before we talk about how people can reach out to you and stuff, but Dan, let's say, and maybe you've had this happen, someone comes to you young, uh, individual contributor, and they're like, Hey, I got my first opportunity to go be a supervisor, team leader, manager, whatever. I'd like to sit down with you, Dan, and get some advice from a seasoned leader. What, what advice in general would you have for someone moving for the first time into a, a leadership role?
Dan:Uh, what I would say is, and I wish I would've said this earlier when you asked me about authors, but there's, uh, a book called The Outward Mindset by the Arbinger Institute. Uh, it is, um, I'll, I'll get the information on it, but it is the best. I would say it's the best book that I've ever read on. You know, whether you're a seasoned leader, a new leader, and the outward mindset shares a story in that book about the owner of um, Madison Square Garden and how this owner, once a week would go and every week, even though he was the owner and he was a wealthy, wealthy, wealthy individual, once a week he would go and do ticket sales once a week. He would go and help people find their seat, right? He put a apron on and serve popcorn and people would have no idea that he was the owner, no idea that he was a multi-billionaire. But yet at the same time, he would put that apron on and serve popcorn. And I think that outward mindset, I would share with that, you know, person that wanted to be a leader, that person that wanted to go into that field, you know, never get too smart, right? Never get to a point where you're unable to do those other roles and serve and help and support. So I think. The outward mindset. We did a study on it with our team last year where, um, we did different exercises for that book. But I think it's really challenged me as a leader, not that I can, um, be superman and, and do too much, but how can I make sure that I can relate to everybody on every level? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what your job title is, doesn't matter if you're the owner, if you're the executive vice president. We need to be able to relate to the person serving popcorn just as much as we do to the person that is, you know, the executive vice president or executive president. Um, so that book has really spoke to me about the humility of that owner. Um, and I've even seen some stories in the outward mindset of different owners that will put their offices, they'll put their offices in different places of the building just so they can relate better to their team versus where it's a level base. So I, I would say that book would be, uh, something that I would share with'em and then. Some other principles that I would share is just back to the basics, right? Um, as a leader, I think, um, one of the worst things that we do as leaders is we enable mediocrity. We enable, um, we allow failure, right? We're like, okay, well maybe I shouldn't say something.'cause I don't wanna hurt, you know, I don't wanna upset them. I don't want them to get mad. I don't want them to pull away, I don't want them to go in the opposite direction. And I think you said it earlier about crucial conversations. I think you said it a you said a little bit ago, and I think, uh, my co-leader and I, I think one of the things that we're really, really good at is the crucial conversation piece. So I would say to a new leader that, you know, get really, really good at having crucial conversations with your people. Don't be afraid to talk about the tough things, right? If you're, if you're afraid to talk about the tough things, you are gonna enable mediocrity, you're gonna enable failure, and you don't want to do that as a leader. You want to, you want to challenge and encourage. To have those really, really difficult, crucial conversations. So, um, I've had some really difficult conversations with my staff, but I would say that they'll run through a wall harder for me, just like I would for them because we're so transparent on that level with them. Like, there's a trust. There's a trust. So that's what I, that's what I would, yeah, that's what I would say. That's.
Jason:That's good, man. I appreciate that. I've never heard of that book. I think all these shows, I've never had someone recommend it, so thank you. I just was looking at it, so I'll link to that as well. Um, yeah, I could say a lot about just those crucial conversations and how when they're not addressed, man, the, the, the damage and you will have, as a leader, you will have to deal with it and it's only gonna get worse. It's like, I. It's like cancer. I mean, it really is on a team and I could give a lot of other analogies, but it's gonna get worse and worse. So address it early and it's a lot easier to address early. And you do build that trust that you talk about Dan, that people, um, yeah, people appreciate that.
Dan:I had a, I had a mentor tell me, Jason, um, about two years ago, he said to me, I was, I was in a different role and he said, Dan, one of the greatest things I can, two greatest things I can tell you as a leader is, number one, encourage your people. And number two, don't ever surprise your people. Don't ever surprise'em. If they're surprised about something that you should have told them, then shame on you.
Jason:Shame on you. That's
Dan:Yeah. Don't, don't surprise'em. They should, you should be transparent with'em, uh, enough where they always know what's coming. Um, so I think those two things that my mentor told me are just so powerful and, uh, encourage and don't surprise.
Jason:Yeah. No, that's good stuff. Hey, um, I said that was the last question, but I lied. I got one more. What do you, what do you hope to leave? What's your, you know, what's the legacy you hope to leave Dan with, uh, your workplace when, I mean, you're a young guy, you know, you got a lot of years ahead of you, but when you think about that, like, or even if someday the Lord calls you away from Zurich, like what do you hope people remember about working with Dan?
Dan:My, um, my dad, uh, passed last August from a stroke. Um, and my dad was my best friend. And, uh, so I really got to watch my dad in his career. I got to watch him as a leader and I would hope that like my dad's legacy of the way that he left this earth, um, and went to heaven. I would hope that my legacy is that I had love in my approach, right? I had love in my accountability, love in my communication, love in my encouragement, love in my challenge. And I think I worked for a manager years ago that was very degrading and everything I did, he degraded. And every time that he challenged someone, he degraded them. So I hope that I can have a legacy where people look at me that I challenged you. Um, but I did it in a loving and a godly way. And I always, I, I say this all the time, I even say this in secular settings, but, uh, if you have God in your approach, you can do anything. You can say anything. If you have love in your approach, you can talk about the worst topic on Earth. And if you have love and God in your approach, it's not gonna come across in a negative way, right? Because you have that in your approach. The number one word in the Bible used the most times in the Bible is love. And I think as a leader and as a legacy, I hope that people would look at me, uh, at Dan capping and say, man, he could have some really, really tough conversations, but he did it in a loving way. He, he would, he had enough respect for me. Um, I wrote in my book that it's easy to find someone to tell you, uh, what you wanna hear. It's really hard to find someone that will, that will tell you what you need to hear. Those are two, those are two very different things, right? So I think that, uh, that's where, where I really want people to remember me is that I, I'm willing to tell you not what you wanna hear. I'm gonna tell you what you need to hear, but I'm gonna do it in a godly way.
Jason:Yeah, yeah. Praise the Lord for that. That's good. That's good. Hey, what's, what's a best way for people to get, uh, get in touch with you? I gotta believe you may have some folks that wanna reach out to you and talk to you some more about whether it's your book or, uh, just network with you.
Dan:Yeah. So, um, my, um, my email, I think you have my email and my cell phone. So both of those are the best way to reach me, and I'm happy, um, happy for people to reach out to me in those ways. Um, outside of that, um, I'm not massive into social media, um, but I'm, you know, I, I'm, you can contact me through those ways
Jason:Okay. Yeah. Alright, well that's cool. We'll put a link to your, uh, your email in the show notes. And I, you're on LinkedIn, I think you and I connected there, so another way for, you know, a lot of professionals use that too, so. Good.
Dan:Yes. Yep. I'm on. I am on LinkedIn and you can connect with me there as well.
Jason:good. All right, brother. Well, hey, thank you for taking the time outta your day today to, uh, meet with me and talk to the audience. And, uh, man, I just really appreciate. Yeah, it's been an inspiring conversation. Challenging always is challenging to hear from another leader. Um, a reminder of the fundamentals. We, we need to be practicing. So thank you, Dan. I appreciate it.
Dan:Yeah, gladly.
Jason:So, and to the audience, hey, thank you for, uh, tuning in again this month and, uh, listening to another leader who's striving to honor Christ in their work. Uh, if you could take a moment to rate the podcast, uh, that would, uh, be much appreciated, that helps others to find it. Uh, if you follow us on YouTube, uh, subscribe and like, and follow us there as well, and, uh, share it with others that you know, that it might be a helpful, helpful, uh, tool to them as well. And so I'll see you again next month when we talk to another leader, striving to honor Christ in their work.
