Deborah McGee - Author and CEO of PZI Group

In this episode of the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast, host Jason Woodard interviews Deborah McGee, a seasoned leader with over 30 years of experience in international operations, consulting, finance, manufacturing, and government. Deborah started her career at a big four accounting firm and later founded PZI International Group. She is also the author of 'The Leadership Attitude: Inspiring Success Through Authenticity and Passion.' 

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Jason 0:00

Welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast. I'm your host, Jason Woodard. On this month's episode, we will meet Deborah McGee. With over 30 years of experience leading international operations across consulting, finance, manufacturing, and government sectors, Deborah has a wealth of wisdom to share. She started her career at a big four accounting firm before moving into corporate leadership, where she built and optimized global HR functions across more than 30 countries. As the founder of PZI International Group, Deborah has dedicated herself to empowering global teams with care, integrity, and purpose. She's also the author of The Leadership Attitude, Inspiring Success Through Authenticity and Passion, where she shares how faith and leadership go hand in hand. So today we'll dive into her journey, explore how biblical principles have shaped her leadership, and discuss what it means to lead with authenticity, and passion in a global workplace. So Deborah, welcome to the show. Yeah. So I always like to start off and give people, um, some more context on, you know, how the Lord led you through kind of your career journey up into where you're at now. So maybe start at a, at a university level, you know, and when you first got into the workforce, what's that look

Deborah 1:18

well, first of all, I'm a retired military spouse. So my, my husband served 31 years and in that 31 years we had 22 moves. So, uh, getting my education at all was not the easiest thing. It only took seven years and five universities to actually get a four year accounting degree before I could even start my, my professional career. But you know, during all the time when I was working through that. I did a lot of volunteer leadership. And so I think so often people forget that your volunteer things that you're doing, whether it's in your kid's school, whether it's in your church, whether it's in your community, that's leadership and it should be taken for, for granted. And so for instance, I was a installation volunteer coordinator for like 800 volunteers before I had a degree, um, you know, in Belgium, for goodness sakes. So all these different things add up to who I became as a leader.

Jason 2:11

I think, uh, I remember a long time ago I had a pastor tell me when I was, I was pretty young and he was mentoring me as a first person who ever even saw any kind of leadership potential. But he told me, he said, I think anyone before they try to be a leader in a business setting should, should learn to lead volunteers

Deborah 2:29

hard.

Jason 2:30

you can't, you can't fire them

Deborah 2:32

You have to be grateful

Jason 2:33

a paycheck over their

Deborah 2:34

Right?

Jason 2:34

Yeah, yes, exactly. So no, I, I, that, that's great experience. Absolutely. And you know, as believers we ought to be

Deborah 2:41

Absolutely. Well, I think that's what really started my, you know, my, um, attitude of servanthood. Um, in the military it's, it's ingrained in us, um, not just the military members, but also the family. To serve others. That's what we're there for us to serve in any way that we can. Um, and so then I just pulled that over into my corporate career as well, which wasn't always the easiest thing to do in corporate America, especially as a female. And yeah, I don't have a chip on my shoulder, but nonetheless, to be in the, um, the big four accounting firms for 13 years. Um, you know, as a, a female was not the easiest thing to do, especially in the eighties, nineties, um, and then transitioning out of there, which I love the accounting field. Um, and I really was, uh, I was, you know, as a senior manager with KPMG, I had, uh, probably book a business of 10 million, I had major clients and all organizations, and I really loved the clients, but I really hated was the bureaucracy of where I worked.

Jason 3:43

That's a big

Deborah 3:43

a big company, it was a big company, and there was a certain way things were done, and it's not always the most biblical way that it's done. I remember very early in my career being told, especially as a female, that my job was to be as aggressive as heck. Get out there, don't take no for an answer, and just keep going like a bulldozer, don't ever stop.

Jason 4:03

Yeah. Were you doing auditing Deborah? Is that, is that kind of the field that you were in at that time was like

Deborah 4:08

I was actually an international taxation. So I am still, I am a CPA. I've been a CPA for 25 years. You know, once, you know what CPA stands for, right, Jason?

Jason 4:19

Go, go for it. I know what a

Deborah 4:21

Can't pass again. So yes, I have kept that CPA all this, all these years. I've never let it lapse, um, because I would never ever take that again. It was very hard to get. Um, but you know, within, within that career, and I really thought that would be my career. I thought I would be a partner in the firms, that What I was aiming toward all while also being a military spouse and raising children and trying to have some type of a, well, I mean, I was raised a Southern Baptist. I was, I mean, it was ingrained to me very early in my spiritual life. And, you know, in that, in that corporate world, it was not welcome in any way, shape or form. So I really separated myself from my professional life and my, and my, my personal life. Fast forward into international human resources. I switched careers after Starving Exhaustion came out and accounting wasn't going to be fun anymore. You couldn't do the strategies. Um, so I switched careers into international human resources, and I really found my calling there because what I was passionate about was the people. That's what I was passionate about, was supporting people in any way I could, especially internationally. Um, whether it was, you know, their payroll, their benefits, their housing, their, their relocation, um, just so many different things. And as a military spouse who had moved 22 times, including internationally, I knew how hard it was. So I had empathy. With that, I moved into two large companies, large companies where I was a corporate manager for compensation benefits with Lafarge North America. It was a 20 billion a year corporation out of France. Actually, it was a French corporation and then moved on later into Doosan Infracore, which was a Korean organization out of Seoul, Korea. Um, and I was the global, uh, global international human resources head for that organization.

Jason 6:10

Yeah. So that's, I'm familiar with, I work in manufacturing. So do sounds a familiar name to me. They make,

Deborah 6:15

Yes. Bobcat.

Jason 6:17

they actually just went through, I think, Yeah, name changes on. Yeah, so they're, uh,

Deborah 6:21

Well, you know, at, uh, at Doosan, at Doosan, I was one of four, uh, female executives in the organization. There were 45, 000 employees. It was a 20 billion a year organization, and I was one of four female execs. Um,

Jason 6:37

You know what? I will say this, Deborah, and you'd probably be proud about this. So our company has a, uh, it's not really a division. It's every one of our businesses are legal separate entities. So that's how they operate is by a holding group. But either way, we have a business in South Korea. Our CEO is a, is a lady and she's been there a long time. Yeah. She's really well respected within the organization there.

Deborah 7:01

Well, there is one thing that I can't, I always joke, kind of half joke that, that it was the first time in my career, not being a 25 year old female was a good thing. Um, because age definitely was respected. Um, and there, cause you know, they're just, there wasn't that many of us around to do it. It was difficult, but rewarding and I would not have known how to run it. I mean, I run a multi million dollar corporation now myself in 30 countries. I wouldn't have known how to do that had I not had that great experience in those leadership positions to be able to, to, um, to know the business side of the house in a way.

Jason 7:35

Um, so I've had the opportunity a few times, including now to work in international organizations. I, I have loved the experience of traveling and seeing other cultures and meeting, um, what I would consider not only colleagues and friends from around the world. I mean, I opened my, it completely changed my perspective of, uh, the world God created. You know, when you spend time in other places and. emphasize with people that live there and work there and, you know, call them colleagues and friends. But I've always thought it must be an enormous challenge for leaders to do an expat assignments, to go and engage and build trust with People from it's literally a different country a different language a different culture I'd like to I'd like to talk a little bit about that and your experience and what what has been a make or break for leaders who have went and Completed those assignments

Deborah 8:30

know, honestly, um, individuals who are chosen for those expat assignments, the reality is they're superstars at home. That's why they were picked. That's why they were, Hey, he's a great guy. He can do this job. This is wonderful. We need, we need this guy here. I don't care what it costs. I need that guy there. And so we do, and so we put them there. But the problem typically is they were a superstar in the last location. They're not a superstar in the new location. You know, they're brought in to quote unquote fix it. And the, you know, the host location may or may not welcome that. Um, learning the culture, the language, you know, I used to, people used to tell him, well, it's all about the culture. And I believe that for, there is some, there is some reality that's true. Don't get me wrong. It is true. The culture and language is true, but you know, Jason, people are people. And once you get below that surface of culture and language and how they live or what they eat or what, how they shop. People are people, you know, and they, they have their, their faiths, their, their goals, their aspirations, their family, just like we do.

Jason 9:36

Yeah, right, right But how do you think, how have ones that you've seen be successful, how do they connect with people that are, that, I mean, there's, it depends on the country. I found, you know, without, if I'm in. Western Europe. Okay. Maybe not a huge difference, but I've spent a little time in China.

Deborah 9:53

spent a lot

Jason 9:54

way, way, yeah, way, way, way different in the way that they think and what's, you know, acceptable and not like, how have you seen people be successful when they've gone to

Deborah 10:06

think Westerners, we struggle. We struggle with that, Jason, because, um, we, we are a task based society. We just get it done. Just get over there and get it done, knock it out as fast as possible, as cheap as possible. You know, and have some fun while you're at it, but that's not how it is that's not the rest of the world. Only the United States are pretty much task based. Some, some Western, Germans may be a little bit more task based. But most, most of the world is very much relationship based. Um, but, you know, I have to get to know you first. Um, I talked about this in my book, the leadership attitude. But what this is such an important story is I had went through many CHROs in my position at, uh, at that location. And I'll never forget the fourth one who called me up and he goes, Deb, I don't know what you've done, but these people don't like you. They just really don't like you. It's like, well, you know, I did exactly what the CEO told me to do. I designed and implemented and ran a huge program that did not exist before. But I had, I had, I had caused people to lose face and I had no relationships with them. So his instructions.

Jason 11:14

just implemented it. You got, yeah, did the

Deborah 11:16

I just did the excuse because that's a Westerner, uh, Western broad, you know, that's what I became known as, that Western broad who likes to spend a lot of money. Um, but, but when I actually did spend time going over there and he, he brought me to Korea for two weeks, he goes, I don't want you to have a single meeting. I don't want you to move anything forward and you don't have an agenda. Your whole, your whole, you're to learn to drink soju, sing karaoke and build relationships.

Jason 11:41

There you go. And did, was that an eye opening experience for you to see, then, how fast you can

Deborah 11:46

I never crossed my mind, you know, because we're not that, we're, we're not geared that way. You know, to have relationships first, but it really, it really put me on a different path, a path of servant leadership, um, where I started mentoring myself through a lot of books. Um, I, yeah, I wish I could say that I had a executive mentor to kind of walk me through and I had executive leadership. I had executive, um, coaches. I even had cultural coaches, but I used to joke that I was so screwed up. I needed two coaches. But, um, but, but the real, I mean, it's just different, you know, for instance, something so simple, I used to always have a scowl on my face when I would be in Korea, having all of our meetings were in Korean. All of our meetings were in Korean. I don't speak Korean. So, so you've got someone talking to you in Korean the entire time, and most Westerners are going to go trying to figure that out, right? And I always had a scowl on my face, and so it came back and said, why is Debbie so angry when she comes here? Gosh, I'm not really angry, but I had to learn to talk with a smile on my face. You know, at all times, because it was it was that it was that's what they saw, not what I meant. And so understanding those little, those little behavioral preferences and changing that. I mean, it started me on a whole different path of leadership. Um, leadership training and leadership development, leadership coaching, and really getting down to the behaviors of people versus culture, language, position.

Jason 13:15

Yeah. That's good. Uh, on the personal side, so we went through a little bit of career. We'll talk more about the book and what you're doing now, but, uh, tell us a little bit about where do you live? You mentioned, uh, that you're a military spouse. So tell us a little bit about that spouse, kids.

Deborah 13:29

huge. Yeah. So, uh, my husband served 31 years. We are, we live in Guntersville, Alabama on a beautiful lake, Lake Guntersville. Um, so we were able to retire to the lake. Uh, I have three grown sons. Two of them are in the military. They were both majors. Uh, both West Corners and my third son is a scientist. He's a virologist. Um, so they're all grown now with, uh, see the 33. Um, so I was doing the, the two year apart while trying to have a career and moving around and all the other stuff that happens with life, right? Just with the life. Um, we have five grandkids. Beautiful. I have, I have four grandsons and I finally, finally got one girl. One, one

Jason 14:12

all the three boys and all, that's a lot of

Deborah 14:15

a lot of testosterone. One of my sons likes to say the forces, the Y force is strong with them. He's like, yes it is. The Y chromosome is very strong with them. But, um,

Jason 14:25

what branch of service, what

Deborah 14:26

he was in the army, and so the other two, um, my two sons are also in the army. Um, and, um, my husband retired and went to work for a, a major, uh, government contractor for about 15 years, retired, retired, and, um, actually is a stay at home dad now. We just adopted a 15 year old boy.

Jason 14:45

Oh wow. That's amazing.

Deborah 14:47

he's, he's great. He's great. So,

Jason 14:50

That's awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you for your service. And I say that I, uh, to you and your husband, but to you as a, as a military spouse, I've, uh, um, I, I have some close friends that we went to church with and, uh, the, the, the husband, uh, was in the military and deployed while we were friends and. So, you know, I didn't ever experience it, but saw the impact that has pretty close up, you know, families and spouses and children that are left behind for that. His was a

Deborah 15:19

oh yeah. Yeah. My husband many times, but that's just, that's just what we do.

Jason 15:23

yeah,

Deborah 15:24

Um, but most of my company actually, 85 percent of my company are military spouses or veterans.

Jason 15:30

Really?

Deborah 15:30

I'm passionate about it. I'm passionate about one. I, I, I mean, I was afforded a great career because big companies took a chance on me, even though I was moving every two years. Um, and I, I really try hard to pass, you know, push that forward.

Jason 15:45

So tell us about your

Deborah 15:46

So PZI, PZI is a global human capital solutions company. Um, it stands for people zealously interconnected. PZI and we really are all about people. So it's, um, a lot of what I did when I ran international human resources, the whole sphere of services, I created six companies to do that instead. So relocation management, uh, international assignment management, employer record, payroll, uh, leadership development. We have a huge amount of government contracts in our leadership workforce development, uh, areas. Yeah. Um, and even international benefits. I mean, even an insurance broker,

Jason 16:25

So do you run those, you run those businesses separately under the umbrella of

Deborah 16:30

we do currently run them all under. I'm the sole owner of all of them. I keep trying to find somebody doesn't anybody wants so far. It's only been me. Um, and. It's, it's, it's just like I said, it's grown. We're in, uh, we're in 30 countries. We have our own subsidiaries in 30 countries and, um, we can do business in probably about, oh, 75.

Jason 16:52

So do you come alongside smaller organizations that need some help with the international piece?

Deborah 16:58

We do.

Jason 16:59

okay. Cause I can imagine. Yeah, I can imagine. Cause I've worked, again, I've worked with some really large companies that had.

Deborah 17:05

Full staff, the whole, we have all the suppliers. And when I

Jason 17:09

they do all the expat

Deborah 17:10

when I did it, Jason, you know, I had suppliers. I probably had a hundred, 150 suppliers globally. Well, those relationships I had had for 20 plus years. And so they came along with me when I started the company.

Jason 17:21

Yeah. Okay. So you help with international assignments, international, I can't imagine international benefits. We just doing benefits here is

Deborah 17:28

It is, international benefits is much more complicated, especially when you've got a U. S. person that you've got to coordinate both sides of it. But I really, we even developed our own international HR software called Eagle Employee Global Logistics. So we developed it, we licensed it, and it's a global, um, it's a global, um, uh, HR software that integrates with Workday and many other companies. And so I have one large government contractor. He uses it for about 7, 000 of their expats in a foreign employee workforce.

Jason 18:00

Wow. That's amazing. How long, how long has the company existed then from 10 years? That's

Deborah 18:05

That was my retirement. I got bored.

Jason 18:08

Yeah, not bored now, are you?

Deborah 18:10

no. I'm looking for that retirement.

Jason 18:12

Yeah, you're ready. Your husband's like, you got to both retire

Deborah 18:15

Exactly. That's the, that's the plan. It's, you know, I, I have other plans and, you know, the, uh, the book, the book thing camp just kind of came out of the blue, to be honest with you. It's one of those things that I thought I would do one day. Um, and it can call him and I. I should say I said yes, but I thought that the story they wanted was my professional story story. They got was very different. And so, you know, getting back into my spiritual side of the house, truly this Holy spirit just came into me and spoke stuff. It's like, I don't even know what that came from. And it was just phenomenal. And the, everything that came out was just, it was, um, it was definitely where it needed to be.

Jason 18:53

So did, did somebody else approach you originally about writing a

Deborah 18:57

Forbes, Forbes approached me. They actually approached me for probably, it was maybe a year or two. To be honest, I thought it was a scam. I mean, he would want to like, not me, really, you know, and it's so fun. It's like, okay, I'll talk with you. Fine, you know, and.

Jason 19:14

and was the original idea around, uh, HR, people,

Deborah 19:19

they were actually looking for, uh, uh, um, women who had done corporate global corporate jobs, which is a little unusual, especially in my situation. And, um, that's what they actually were, you know, we're looking for us. What drew drew them to me and then, of course, the company developing, you know. setting up my own company. And it's not a small company. I mean, we have probably about 200, some multi million dollar company, and we have maybe about 200 employees, um, around the club want to grow, but

Jason 19:48

So then how did it transform into the end product and how long did that

Deborah 19:52

it was tough. It probably took a year and a half. Um, it. It transformed when we first started talking, um, and then we went to meet with them because my husband wasn't convinced that it was something we really wanted to do. Um, with everything else you've got going on now, you're going to write a book too. Um, but it really, um, every time I met with them, more and more of, um, how I led and, and, you know, kind of jumping back a little bit when I was with Doosan and doing all these amazing things. As, as the book talks about, you know, we went through an enterprise resource planning exercise. I was, I was like, Oh, I wasn't planning. I actually went all the way to Korea to fight for our team, not to go through the ERP process. Everybody else's function had been just complete disseminated. And we were running everything for the corporations. So why would they tear us apart? Um, and they actually. let me go. He flew me 7, 000 miles to let me go. Yeah. I've never took that long of a plane ride to get fired. But so, yeah.

Jason 20:53

Yeah.

Deborah 20:53

you know, it was, uh, it was harsh and it took me a long time to be honest with you. It probably took me six months where I could even say it out loud because I was going to retire anyway. So it's easier to say you're retiring, but to be severed. Um, and I wasn't, I was only 50. I wasn't quite ready to, you know, to stop working yet. Um, but I never thought about starting a company. Never in a million years. People told me I should, it's like what I did was so unique. How would you even do something like that? How would you just. Do it. And, um, I started, um, I had my, our pastor had been challenging us for a long time to read the Bible in a year. And reality was probably, I hadn't picked up a Bible of it 25 years. I mean, I, you know, raised the kids, the church, I went to church, I saved it at 10, you know, I, I did all the things that I needed to do, but I never had a real relationship with Jesus Christ until I was probably 50. And, um, you know, so I, I had an experience, it happened to me, um, my father passed away. He was, you know, I was fortunate that I was raised by Christian, by Christian family. I was very fortunate, but, um, my father, when he passed away, um, And he was fortunate enough to die at home with my mother and my sisters there with him. And they told me that his last few breaths, he reached out three times. And they thought he was reaching out for them. But they realized on his third breath, he wasn't reaching sideways. He was reaching straight ahead. And they knew, they knew he was, someone was there to take him home.

Jason 22:25

Yeah.

Deborah 22:26

my mother said, you know, honey, it's okay. We're good. You can go. And he did. And that was probably for me, Jason, to go, wow, this is really, this is really good. Everything I've known, everything I've heard, everything I've believed, But it's real. And it, and so when I went through this experience and there's a lot in the book that talks about, you know, that, that path, but when I went through that experience and I, um, sat down and started reading literally, I mean, I'm very, I'm a very structured person. I'm a CPA, I'm a very structured person. So, you know, Two chapters in the Old Testament, chapter in the New Testament. And I started writing out my prayers. I had never done that. And the more I read, the more similarities I saw in business. It's like, Oh my gosh, this is, I deal with, I deal with Goliath every single day. You know, I deal with these things every single day. I just never thought about it in a business sense.

Jason 23:19

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And scripture's got

Deborah 23:22

has all the answers. It is, it's just like, wow, it's like a guidebook. If you just. We'll take the time to sit down, read it, and study it. Not just, you know, not just gloss over it, but actually study it

Jason 23:35

No

Deborah 23:36

and, and pray. You know, I, I, I had, I mean, I used, I used to be someone who I prayed to God a lot. I never like got talked to me. I talked to him all the time, But I never let him ever talk to me. And taking that stop, stop and saying, okay, before, like now as part of my leadership, I don't make any decisions. None. I mean, and it's, I used to think it's my gut, my instinct. It's not my gut, it's not instincts. That's that's Jesus. That's my, I call him business. Jesus. That's my business. Jesus.

Jason 24:07

Well, he, you know, scripture says, uh, one thing, uh, he'll give liberally if we ask and that's wisdom. And yeah, I mean, I find myself many times I've prayed for over a situation that I just wasn't clear on, you know, it's not all situations are black and white. Although you and I, people like you and I love black and white process. This is the yes or no, but you know, there's a lot of situations that aren't, especially with people. And, uh, yeah, I can tell you many times I prayed and prayed for wisdom on something and then it just becomes clear. And, you know, I thank God

Deborah 24:36

I agree 100%. And, you know, being the CEO and, you know, we, like I said, we have grown and, you know, not everyone works out. We are a, we're a Christian based organization and I have had some wonderful, wonderful Christians work for me, but it is a business too. You know, sometimes it's just not the right fit. And I, I, people are my passion. People are my passion. So having to let anyone go just really, really tears at me. Um, and I've had to do it and, but I've never done it because of the business reason or because of their performance, I've always started from Jesus, what do I need to do? I used to be before, before I get closer to my faith, I would be the one to go, okay, I, as a leader, have I done everything that I should have done for them? Maybe, but a lot of times it was me. Have I done everything? Versus Jesus, what do you want me to do?

Jason 25:33

Yeah, give me clarity on it. That's good. That's interesting. It's it's tough though. You're right. I mean, it's Yeah, letting people go and it's always tough even even, you know, there's some people who I want to say it's an easier decision because they've really made it a little easier But you know, I've had and yeah, I'm sure you've shared this I've had to let other believers go that I knew we shared a faith and we talked about our faiths But

Deborah 25:55

But it wasn't the right fit.

Jason 25:57

performance wasn't that great It wasn't the right fit, the performance wasn't there, and that's tough. But, I've always found myself praying, uh, before it, and praying for them afterwards, praying for them, you know, whether, whether they're a believer or not, that they would land on their feet and find whatever it was God,

Deborah 26:12

Well, and I found

Jason 26:13

them through that.

Deborah 26:15

through the years that, um, I'm a big believer, you know, um, shut a door and got to open a window, you know, so it, he, he leads you where, where he wants you to be. And, you know, I truly believe that my husband and I were supposed to be here in Guntersville, Alabama, and I fought that tooth and nail for a very long time. Um, and now to see where he's put me in, um, and in this position, you know, I, I truly feel my job as a, As, as his, as his daughter is to build a foundation for his people to have, um, a place to work, interesting work, um, and do things for other people. And we, that's what we do. We're, I mean, we truly help other people. We support them in so many different ways.

Jason 27:03

yeah, that's good. I mean that's, yeah, just serve, right? You can take your gifts and go serve. That's what we're called to do as believers in the church, but I believe that that's why we're given work, that God has given us talents and gifts to go work in this world and, you know, reconcile and build and create and serve. It's all about

Deborah 27:20

one of my, you know, one of my biblical heroes is Deborah, Deborah judges, and, you know, I resonate. It's like Deborah who led the nation of Israel, my goodness, and 600 years before Christ and, and it, you know, had an entire victory, um, because the general in charge basically said, I won't do it unless you do it with me. I won't go unless you go with me and to have that happen. Think about that. 600 years BC. Think about that. It's just, that's incredible. And to have, I think back on what her life must've been like, the challenges of what she must've had and the counsel she had to have, have taken from, from God. Well, it's just, I'm odd.

Jason 28:04

Hey, tell, I want to understand a little bit timing around when your father passed away and then when you were let go from Doosan, like, really

Deborah 28:14

Very close, very close. Um, probably about two, within about two years of it, um, of that happening. Um. It, you know, um, yeah, probably about without within two years. And then my, and I talked about the book as well. My, my son had a tragic fall from the roof of a building and broke his back. And, um, and I was, I was in Dubai, uh, traveling the world, you know, and so I kept these, these things just kept happening, you know, these really things it's like, stop, what did you do? You're not supposed to be there. That's not why I want you there. But I didn't listen. I didn't listen. So I joke about it in the book and said, Well,

Jason 28:56

Yeah.

Deborah 28:57

you won't listen to me. I'm gonna put you a time out. I'm just gonna give you a time out. And he gave me a really good time out and took the job away.

Jason 29:05

Well, God knows how to get to us. And, you know, that's why I wanted to ask you that, Deborah, because, um, it, you know, The Lord allows those things to come into our life for a purpose. Sometimes it's to open our eyes because we're being stubborn. I've been there. Trust me. I have stories. It's not always, you know, it could be just, but it's, it's always for his children for their, for their best and to sanctify them and to glorify himself. And so I just think it's important when we're sharing these stories, because you know, you're many years past that, but maybe there's someone listening who's going through

Deborah 29:36

Yeah. And doesn't see the connection, you know, doesn't see, um, doesn't see the, The why the why in it, it takes, it takes a long time to see the wine. My, my mother just passed away probably, uh, maybe six weeks ago. Uh, so she lived another 15 years and again, just, you know, it was such a celebration of her life and knowing we were all so happy we knew where she was going to have that as a believer. Um, you know, I always want to make sure that I have that with me. With my children, if I can leave that legacy, I can leave that one legacy. Forget about the business, forget about the books, forget about anything else. If I can leave the legacy that it's

Jason 30:17

That's right.

Deborah 30:17

it's real, then I've done

Jason 30:19

Now, especially with, we have two grandchildren and so that's what I'm starting to think about. Like how do I disciple

Deborah 30:25

It's tough when you're not the parent.

Jason 30:27

Yep. They, you know, they, they live nearby and our kids are totally open. They all come to our church. So it's just, I love it. One of my favorite Sundays when they're all there together, it doesn't always happen, you know, different work schedules and sicknesses and things. But man, when my whole family's there, we take up a whole pew and I love it. I love it. So that's a blessing to be all there together. So I have a question around, I always ask people this, uh, what is your, And this probably is in your book too, but like, what is your like, key core, like, leadership principle? What are the few things that you always, always go back to when you think about effective leadership?

Deborah 31:03

The one core thing is, are you listening to the person? Are you telling, are you listening? And what can you do to support that person? Now, what can they do to support you? I think so many times as leaders, we think, okay, you're here to support me. You know, I'm the manager. You're the, you're the, the tasker, your job is to support me. And I, I won't lie. That was probably, that was my methodology for probably 20 plus years of that. Um, but now looking at it and going, it is not just a matter of how can I support you? But really connecting to that person, taking the time to connect. You know, I'm a, I'm a very, um, directed individual and I do move really fast. And, but I know when someone really needs to talk to me and I tell this a lot, when we're doing leadership development, I can always tell people want to, what they want when they come in the door, they'll come in the door and they go, Hey Deb, I got a question or Deb, can you, and they really just need me to stop what I'm doing and answer their question. That's all they need. They just need a quick answer. And then they have other times they come in. It's like, I really don't understand what it is we're doing this. And they need the why. They need me to stop and tell them the why. Show them the big picture, because I know the big picture, but maybe I didn't communicate it. My husband's always reminded me I'm a terrible communicator. For someone who teaches communication, I really suck at communication. But tell them the big why, you know, oh, what it is that they're supposed to do. And then there's others that's like, okay, well, We did this. Why do we have to do something else? Because there's so many possibilities, and I love the possibilities. I'm always, I want more and more and more possibilities, because I gather data that way. But most importantly, when someone walks into my office, And they come in, they go, oh my gosh, you're just not gonna believe what just happened. This is so amazing. I know they need me to be to what? I may be in the middle of numbers you know, and stop what I'm doing. Listen and get excited with them. You know, share their excitement with them. And it's typically, it's typically a Godwin 'cause typically a God moment, you know? So I'm always happy to do that. But when they come in and they pull up the chair. And they sit in front of me, they need to talk to me. That's when I got to literally get away from my computer, stop, lower my tone, and just have a conversation.

Jason 33:20

Yeah. And that's inefficient, right? And that's, I just was talking to someone else on the podcast the other day that, uh, it hasn't come out yet, but he talked about how inefficient relationships are and he's right. But we got in for those of us that love efficiency, it's hard, but it's the right thing to

Deborah 33:36

It's not just the right thing to do, it becomes the most efficient way to do it. You know, I

Jason 33:41

it is

Deborah 33:42

I look back on my career, and oh, I was driving a really big bus, and I had a lot of people, I had over 20 people globally working for me, but they weren't on my bus. I was driving the bus without, you know, they could get on if they wanted to, but I, it didn't really matter. I was going and uh, and I don't, that's not how I lead anymore. I want everyone on my bus. I want it overflowing till they can't fit anymore.

Jason 34:04

What, so let's talk more about the book and what is like, what, what is benefit is people going to get when they go and buy your book, which we're going to put a link in the podcast and make sure they go out to Amazon and check that out. But what are they going to learn from it? What's going to be the big takeaway for other

Deborah 34:19

the first couple chapters they're going to go, wow, she's really no different than I am. And then they're going to start seeing how some little tiny changes happened. Um, and how could those little tiny changes maybe make a difference in their lives too. Have they thought about that? And they're not, I'm a big believer of 5%. It's, it's, it's the little things, it's the little things that you do that really make a difference in communications and make a difference in how you support people. Um, and that all, I mean, the reality is, you know, Jesus Christ was the greatest leader ever. We're still following him 2000 plus years later. So why wouldn't I? And you know, it's part of, part of my book is I start every chapter with a Bible verse. I relate it back to, for instance, I talk about informal leadership through Esther. Um, one example of informal leadership, she had no authority whatsoever, but saved the entire population. You know, just because she could influence, because she had influence. And how many people in your organization have influence, but not authority? I

Jason 35:20

That's right. Yep. Yep. The law of EF Hutton. This was from John

Deborah 35:25

love, I love John Maxwell. He was my first one. My first book was John Maxwell was a 21 characteristics of leadership. Yes,

Jason 35:35

Hutton, when the real leader speaks, everybody listens. And I love his story. So you talked about, you know, coming up in a Southern Baptist church. And, you know, my family and I have attended predominantly Baptist churches. or non denominational, which is Baptist in nature churches. And I've served on, you know, I've served as a deacon in these churches when I was 35 years younger than any man sitting around that table. And, uh, yeah, it was the law of E. F. Hutton because everybody knew who the real leader was. And, you know, at that church and, you know, unfortunately I've, I've, I've served alongside some very godly men who didn't, uh, wield that, uh, ungodly as, as a leader. They, you know, they used it in a very good way, but yeah,

Deborah 36:15

sometimes those with

Jason 36:16

What are some,

Deborah 36:17

don't aren't always the one with the influence. Everyone thinks that if you have the authority, therefore you're influencing people. That's not necessarily true. Oh, you might be. You might be influencing them for the bad. I'm not so sure that I influence people well, um, in my corporate days. But I, you know, I, I do hope I'm influencing them to see that you can, you can have your faith. And work in the corporate world. Capitalism can, can survive, you know, with Christianity. Absolutely.

Jason 36:45

Oh, for sure. Yeah. And I think it's, uh, yeah, I've, I've become convinced that, um, all of the true leadership principles that I know are biblical principles. All of them. And even, you know, uh, you know, free market and good business and healthy businesses. Um, all the principles that work in those environments are

Deborah 37:05

did Jesus say? Right? Give Caesar what is Caesar's and give God what is God's.

Jason 37:10

Yeah. Yeah. So your, so your book is good for Christian leaders that want to learn and

Deborah 37:16

just are corporate leaders and want to have a, how do I, how do I connect with informal leadership? How do I connect with people? How do I, how do I actually get people to stop and communicate with each other? And like I said, we do a lot of leadership development training. We've got probably six or seven government contracts and we're influencing people. Every day. And it's truly about behavioral preferences and how, how you change little things you do because you can't change anybody else. How can you change the little things you do in that?

Jason 37:47

well, and that's a great, you know what? That's so true. Uh, that is so true, man. I think about. When I'm praying about someone I'm struggling in that relationship, I'm like, I gotta pray about me in that piece because Lord, that person's heart is yours.

Deborah 38:03

Yes.

Jason 38:04

Can you give, Deborah, can you give us a couple of tidbits, a couple of examples from the book of maybe those little tweaks that people can make? Because I hear what you're saying and that's good stuff. I'd like

Deborah 38:15

you know something, the simplest thing to do to, um, especially to connect to someone and show that you want to, you want to collaborate with them? It's to smile. Just a smile. And it's pretty simple to do. You know, but when we're in that, when we're in that mode, and we're, and we're trying to get people to do what we want them to do, we don't really want them to collaborate. We just want them to do what we want them to do. But the collaboration can start with just a quick smile. A little bit of power.

Jason 38:43

had to have that feedback. Uh, one time I, I made a change to an organization where I learned the hard way about a lot better leadership. And I went through some really tough, um, tough, painful, but good changes in the way I lead people. And I did have a mentor for, thank God for that man. But I remember I would come into the shop every day, just my normal come in. And after a while people are like, why do you always come in here looking like you're mad? You don't smile. I'm like, I'm just coming to, I'm just walking and going to my office. They're like, you look like you're

Deborah 39:13

you're already in your head. You're in your head. You're moving things forward in your head. That's why, you know, it's the hardest thing for people like us who insist on moving things forward. We just have that action. We have to do it is to, is to connect and collaborate with someone who just wants a relationship. That is so hard. Here's a little easy little tidbit. Those individuals who really want relationships, you know, they're the ones with the pictures of their family everywhere and their dog. And they're always asking how everybody is and how's your mother or her. She was sick and you know, it was like, gosh, I just need the report. Can you just give me the report? Walk into that person's office, cube, whatever, and just go, so how was your son's game last night? You know, you really want the reports what you really want and walk out. Okay. Don't ask. Don't bite your tongue. Don't ask for it. Walk out. Start showing that you actually do care about them and you'll get more than just, you know, the, just the report. You'll get, you'll, you'll, you'll get their loyalty and that, that's everything. I talk about it in the book a little bit. This is a true story. I talk about it in a lot of my leadership, um, about when I first kind of changed how I connect and, and how I use my preferences. I had an individual that I was trying to let go, um, for a long time. Like six months. I had so much documentation in nature. I would not let me fire. And, uh, we went through, we went through this, we wouldn't use insights discovery. I'm going to drop a name there, but insights discovery is an assessment that we use, um, and we went through it and this individual had been such a star performer for me and had just completely stopped and was just antagonistic. I couldn't get anything from him. It's like, dude, you just gotta go. You gotta go. When I started giving him the information, like, if I knew I needed a report on Wednesday afternoon, if I told him on Tuesday or Monday, hey, by the way, by Wednesday close of day, I really need his report and this is how I need it. He showed up every time. I promoted him to a manager three months later.

Jason 41:19

Just making some tweaks and

Deborah 41:21

just tweaks, you know, and he took the time to give me what I needed too. Not at the last minute. You know, but, and not so much data that I couldn't write it anyway, but you know, as we call it bluff, right? Bottom line up front, um, just give me the information that I need up front. The few bullets that I need to have to make my decision. And I trust that you've got all the data because that's what you do. That's what I know you're good at. And if I need the data, I'll ask you for the data. Otherwise I just need the bottom line up front.

Jason 41:50

the book is called, again, The Leadership Attitude. You can grab it on Amazon, right? We'll

Deborah 41:55

Deborah E McGee.

Jason 41:56

Is it? Deborah E. McGee. And, yeah, so, is it Kindle? You can get it

Deborah 42:01

Kindle. It is also audio can also read it on the audio book. You can download it.

Jason 42:05

Did you do the audio for it?

Deborah 42:07

did not. I thought my voice was just a little bit too Southern, but I do love the

Jason 42:13

cool to go through

Deborah 42:14

re interviewed a lot of different people and put it this way. She made me cry.

Jason 42:18

Aw, nice. Good. So you can get an audible, you can get a Kindle. That's good. So you're an author, but I always like to ask my guests, who do you like to read? Who do you like to listen to? Who are your favorite podcasters, authors to keep yourself sharp spiritually or leadership both?

Deborah 42:34

you know,

Jason 42:34

Like who do you,

Deborah 42:35

probably for me, I love Patrick Lindsay. I only have read over one of his books. I love John Gordon. I love all of his books. I've read every Bob Maxwell book that there is. You know, so those are probably my, and I, that's how I learned. That's how I learned leadership. That's how I metric myself was through books. I wish I'd had a person to do it for me. Um, but I knew what I was looking for. And that I think all of those, all of those individuals led me to, I think they led me to the Bible to actually read. And be mentored by, by the one person who really could mentor me.

Jason 43:09

Yeah. Well, and Lencioni and Maxwell, uh, very, very familiar with both those guys is right. I've read most of their stuff. They're both

Deborah 43:17

And it shows through

Jason 43:18

so I'm actually.

Deborah 43:19

they, they, their passion for people. I mean, that's what we're all about here is supporting each other and taking care of each other really is, is what I think our mission on this earth.

Jason 43:28

Yeah. Yep. That's right. Hey, um, you've probably been able to do this and mentoring other people, uh, Deborah, but when you, if you've had somebody to come to you and say, I have my first opportunity to lead. And I'd like to sit down with you and get your advice on what are some things I definitely should not do and some things I should do as I take on this new leadership role. What advice would you give

Deborah 43:53

Um, first, what, what are you wanting to get out of this? What is it you're wanting to get? You know, is it wanting title money, prestige? Cause that'll tell you right up front. Am I in it for me? Or am I in it for the organization or am I in it for, for people? And I would tell them, you know, take, take a moment and probably read Troubadour, Servant Leadership. That's probably the first book I ever read about servant leadership. Um, and, and really understand that your, your job now, I'm just like Jesus told us, you know, the first will be last. Your job is to wash feets and support in any way possible. My, my team just did a major training, uh, recently in Hawaii with the department of defense. And these were, I mean, generals and colonels in the room, big people, right? I didn't do any of the training. I did the slides. I helped put the rugs down. I did everything my team needed to support. My job is not always to be out front. My job is to support my

Jason 44:50

Yeah. Yep. That's right. No, and that feels good when you can step back and they do their thing.

Deborah 44:56

better at it than I am, so.

Jason 44:58

what Yeah, when I see my team, you know, collaborating and working together and solving problems and I'm there to just support them and they, you know, take the wheel and go. That's, that's huge. I mean, that's huge. Yeah. Hey, how do you, uh, how do you honor Christ in your work as a CEO of a company, a global company? Obviously not everyone there is, you know, believers. It's a, you're serving, you know, people inside, outside the church. Like how do you, when you go into work every day, what are some things you do to try to

Deborah 45:25

well, I start my day, I start my day with, I mean, I spend, you know, I usually, I'm usually up at three 34 o'clock in the morning. I figure I can sleep when I'm, when I'm dead. But, um, but I, you know, I'm up early. I usually try to spend at least an hour, you know, reading, reading my scripture, uh, doing my prayers. Um, I'm always listening to Christian music coming in. It gets me in the right main mainframe. And I, you know, I have a huge wooden cross on my, on my office. Um, and I love the fact that it.

Jason 45:52

Yeah,

Deborah 45:52

We have a lot of windows. So when I'm on a video conference, it, it resonates right there too. You can see it. And I want to make it clear. I, you know, I, I lead the way Jesus Christ wanted me to lead. Cause I look at this as his business, not mine.

Jason 46:07

yeah, that's right. Yep. Yep. And so, um, yeah, no, that's good. What is your, what is your team structure look like? And are you guys just completely remote? Cause I mean, you're all over the world. I'm just curious on what

Deborah 46:21

return to work. I've done tons of return to office, um, um, interviews recently. So we are, we probably have about 10 in Huntsville. Um, that's where our headquarters is at. We used to have probably about maybe 15. So, you know, that's gone down a little bit. But yeah, we have people in Germany. I have people all over the United States. We have people in, uh, in Kentucky. Um, you know, we have offices in, uh, in Italy. I've been looking for someone to possibly work for me in Korea. So, we'll see where that goes. I've just got to get the contracts.

Jason 46:52

Yeah.

Deborah 46:53

But yeah, remote work,

Jason 46:54

gotta be a unique.

Deborah 46:55

is tough. Um, you know, I'm, I'm from the era before remote work. Flexible work was maybe if I was really lucky is what we had

Jason 47:03

Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure.

Deborah 47:04

career and not remote work. Um, and I have some that are more efficient remote, um, than they are in person. My managers, um, we recently just enacted a new, uh, process where we'll be giving them a set, a set amount of stipend basically every year. For them to come to headquarters four times a year, just to have that interface with the leadership face, you know, one on one and I've realized it, you know, if I give them the money, they can figure it out, but these are their expectations and their, their managers, they can, they can take care of it and I think from, um, you know, if we see people that are struggling with remote work. And we've done it before. We brought them in to the office to see how we can help their skills and then send them back out because no one wants to feel like they're working alone. I'm a big believer you get 15 minutes where we do Microsoft Teams, you know, so we're, we're, we're teams all the time. And yeah, we do expect that if you're on, and someone asks you a question within 15 minutes, you should be able to answer that question.

Jason 48:04

Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. That's a definitely a unique challenge. I'm and I'm with you, especially being a manufacturing remote work was unheard of before COVID. And now it's, you know, we have a few people that do it. It's nice because when you need to be able to do it, the technologies there, you know, I actually did last week, last week. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Don't even get me started. I'm like, how do we not have this figured out yet? So, yeah, but that's, I mean, managing, that'd be a good book to write is managing remote teams all over the world and how you do that and how do you sustain culture and build culture. And that's all extra challenging

Deborah 48:41

know what?

Jason 48:41

there together.

Deborah 48:42

a tidbit out that I'm very proud and I won't take credit for it. Our team came up with this and I love it. We do what's called non meeting meetings. Every month we have a non meeting meetings and we do remote and and we do hybrids so that you know we've done how to how to plant begonias, um, how to how to make a charcuterie board. You know, we brought in other CEOs from other companies, um, and talk to them about their journey and what they've done. So it has nothing to do with the business, nothing whatsoever to do with the business and it's just a way for them to learn. Yes.

Jason 49:15

Yeah, that's great. It's like lunch. And I've seen companies do, and I've been a part of lunch and learns where you're just like, Hey, we're having whatever. This person's a financial planner. He's going to be here during lunch today. Bring your lunch to the conference room. It's free. They're just here. That's cool. And then yeah, you can do it remote so you can yeah people can tune in from all over great. Hey, uh before we wrap up. I want to make sure people know how to get ahold of you I mean, there's a I you know, just you professionally. I mean, I know that you've got your business the book Let's talk about all those ways. They

Deborah 49:44

own website, DeborahEMcGee. com

Jason 49:47

yep. Okay, and that and then your company is

Deborah 49:50

And so www. PZIGroup, um, and of course, LinkedIn. Um, I'm on LinkedIn, uh, Facebook, um, personally and professionally.

Jason 50:00

Yeah. You're pretty active on LinkedIn. So yeah, I just connected the other day with you.

Deborah 50:04

Yeah. We're very active on LinkedIn. I'm very fortunate. I, I, it's a lot of years. Put it that way. A lot of years.

Jason 50:11

I'm trying to think, I think I joined LinkedIn and Oh, like seven maybe or away. I remember a mentor

Deborah 50:19

it was early 2000s

Jason 50:19

there's this thing.

Deborah 50:21

Early 2000s.

Jason 50:21

Was it? Yeah. Yeah, it's come a long ways. It's come a long way. So yeah, we'll link to all those so people can reach out whether they're, uh, again, recommend grabbing the book for sure. Um, yeah, I love those things. Those are, it reminds me of, you know, going back to my books I've read John Maxwell and luncheone. A lot of that is small stuff that you're like, I can, I can do this. I can think differently about this tomorrow. I can do this right immediately. It's not, these

Deborah 50:46

They're not giant, huge steps. DCIS didn't make it hard for us. We make it hard for us.

Jason 50:51

Yeah. We do. We overcomplicate it for sure. Um, yeah. So anything else you'd like to cover before we wrap

Deborah 50:57

I think, you know, I think my message is comes through loud and clear in the book, and I hope in the company as well as, you know, take time to support each other. Um, you know, because when you're, as my husband always says, right, when you're dead, do you really want on your tombstone how many reports you got out and how many meetings you attended, you know, or do you want what you did for people?

Jason 51:16

Yeah. Well, and you mentioned it earlier, especially for those of us now with, uh, you know, grandchildren, you really start thinking about that. Your legacy really just want to impact. You just want to impact people, your kids, your grandkids, and those you've worked with, you know, for the Lord. where possible, you know, to share the gospel where you can and live for him, work, work in a way that honors him is, uh, that's huge. So yeah. well, Deborah, thank you for sharing your wisdom and faith with us today. It's been a privilege having you on the show and to our listeners. Thank you for tuning in again. If you enjoyed this conversation, I'd love To have you connect with me, uh, you can leave a rating on your podcast app. Uh, you can also subscribe to the YouTube channel, so you'll get more great content that way. and join us again next month as we hear from another faith driven leader striving to honor Christ in their work. Until then, stay strong in your calling and keep leading with excellence.