Biblical Leadership @ Work
A monthly interview with experienced workplace leaders who are serious about their faith in Christ and about being effective leaders. During each episode we learn about the leaders background and experiences and how they employ biblical principles at work, to lead change, develop others, and grow business all while striving to honor Jesus in all that they do. New episodes drop on the first of each month and are about an hour in length.
Biblical Leadership @ Work
Brandon West - Founder of PHOS Creative
In this episode of the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast, host Jason Woodard interviews Brandon West, the founder and Chief Purpose Officer of PHOS Creative. Brandon details his path from a university student pursuing classical studies to establishing a successful digital marketing agency. He discusses the trials he and his wife faced early on, including the loss of their mothers and raising a family while building a business. Emphasizing purpose-driven leadership, Brandon shares how integrating faith into the workplace has shaped his company culture and his own leadership style. He also reflects on the importance of intentionality, love, and faithfulness in leadership, and offers practical advice on balancing efficiency with empathy. Highlighting his own journey to faith and his spiritual practices, Brandon speaks on the transformative power of regular retreats and scripture reading. Additionally, Brandon shares insights from his book, 'It Is Not Your Business to Succeed,' which challenges leaders to measure success through faithfulness rather than outcomes.
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Welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast. I'm your host, Jason Woodard. On this month's episode, we will meet Brandon West. Brandon is the founder and chief purpose officer of FOS Creative, a strategy first digital marketing agency that has been recognized on the Inc. 5000, Gator 100, and as a best Christian workplace. He's also a sought after speaker and the author of It Is Not Your Business to Succeed. A book that challenges leaders to redefine success beyond outcomes and one that I highly recommend after reading it last year. Brandon is passionate about purpose driven leadership, building people first cultures, and integrating faith into the workplace. Beyond business, he serves as an elder at Salt Church, invests in Christian leadership development, and, most importantly, strives to reflect Christ in all that he does. Today, we'll dive into his journey of faith and leadership and how he built a thriving business while keeping Christ at the center and what it means to lead with purpose in today's world. So, Brandon, brother, welcome to the show. Thank you.
Brandon:Jason, thank you so much, man. We're gonna have a blast here. Really excited about our time together.
Jason:We will. Hey, listen, Brandon, let's, uh, take us through how the Lord got you from university through early career and where he has you today.
Brandon:Dude, my, my wife and I, I don't know, like we've just experienced most of life at pretty young stages. Like we're high school sweethearts out of Orlando, Florida, came up to Gainesville, uh, to become a Gator and, uh, graduated from the University of Florida. We got married while we were there as students. We got married at 19 years old. We had our first. First kid at 21, our second kid at 24, and then started my company at 26. Um, we lost at this point of our lives early on in our thirties. We both lost our, our moms. Um, like we just have been through like all the things like very young and early in life. So hopefully, hopefully that points to early maturation. Um,
Jason:So what, what was your, uh, major when you went to, uh, university? What was
Brandon:Yeah, I remember meeting with a pastor in my church. And he's like, what do you, what do you want to do? And at the time I was like, I want to be a pastor. That's what I want to do. And he's like, Oh, wow. What are you studying? And I was like, graphic design
Jason:Perfect. Well,
Brandon:And I was like, what is that? And he's like, that's Greek and Roman history, Greek and Latin language. I was like. That I didn't even know that was a thing. That is John MacArthur's secret sauce. Like I need to go do that. And so I switched over to classical studies, did a emphasis in Koine Greek, which is the Greek of the new Testament, and did a minor in business administration. And from all of that came up with the name of my company, Phos Creative, which is the Greek word for light. So I spent two and a half years at the university of Florida so that I could come up with that one word. To guide to guide my company
Jason:paid off. It paid off. So right out of school, what did you do? I, you didn't go create this new company. What,
Brandon:right out of school when I graduated a degree in classical studies. I remember one of the TAs told me I had two options with my new classical studies degree. I could either go teach other people what I just learned or I could manage Barnes and Noble. That was my option with a degree in classical studies. So, um, I went and became a teacher. I taught for four years at a classical Christian school called Cornerstone Academy. And I taught Greek language and Latin language and algebra three and yearbook and led the junior classical league. Had a blast doing that as in like grading homework and, um, Helicopter parents. Those were two very hard things about being a teacher. And so, uh, at the time I had taught myself graphic design and websites and the small Baptist church that I was going to in Micanopy, Florida, had a 94 year old man managing the website and
Jason:Oh
Brandon:doing tech. And I just asked, I was like, can I help? And he's like, that would be great sunny. And so I rebuilt a website for my church. Friends saw that. Asked if I could do one for him. I charged him 300 bucks. Another friend saw that. I charged him 3, 000 bucks. And I was like, this is kind of a business. And so, went to five men in my life who were my closest counselors, elders, pastors in my life. And they were all unanimous. All unanimous that I should surrender my 18, 000 a year. Jing salary and start foes, but you know, they use the term like golden handcuffs, like how hard it can be to like, once you have a salary to like step away and truly become an all an entrepreneur, I don't care how much money you're making 18, 000 a year, 180, 000 a year, like it's hard to step away from predictive income.
Jason:It's scary.
Brandon:with five men affirming me, I stepped out in 20, 2013 and started the company.
Jason:Okay. And then I, what was your wife's feeling at the time? I mean, obviously she was somewhat supportive, but was she nervous? Super supportive? A little bit not supportive.
Brandon:You know, at that point, there was enough income coming in from side projects where we were kind of curious, like, wow, if I do this, like, what if we could make 36, 000 a year? Like, we would be rich.
Jason:I don't know what I do with all the
Brandon:Doubling our income. And so there was kind of this like hopeful, you know, I think I can make this work. What if we tried this? It was an interesting year because in 2013, when I stepped away that summer, if I would have kept teaching, my life would have gotten so hard because my wife's mother was diagnosed with cancer. And over the next six months, we wound up just traveling back and forth to Orlando over and over to care for her. And she wound up passing away that December. I could not have taught. But I had this broken HP laptop that I would bring down there with me. It's one of those ones where you had to have it plugged in all the time. You know, it's like if
Jason:Yep, battery last five minutes.
Brandon:no, no, it was even worse. It was like, if somebody came by and accidentally kicked it out, it dies immediately and you lose all of your work for the past three hours. So I, that's where I built foes, man, was off of that broken HP laptop that I praise God for. That's.
Jason:I was, so our oldest son owns his own business and he has had that now for I think three and a half years. Maybe it'll be four years this coming, it's November or so. Anyways, you know, I can remember, he was an entrepreneur at heart when he was a kid and uh, and a rancher. He's always been around cars and loved to work on cars. So he did that right out of high school. He was working at shops, but always dreamed of having his own business. So yeah, he was at the time, he was married by the only been married for a short time. They didn't have any children yet. And I remember he came to, you know, my wife and I and asked us our thoughts and his wife as well. And yeah, we're like, I remember telling, I told him, my advice to him was every year you wait, it'll get harder. it's just going to get harder to, you know, to do it. You're going to get it, you know, more responsibility and it's going to be higher risk because like you said, you walk away from a steady check. So, you know, if your wife is supportive and ready to take the risk, go for it. And they did. And it's, and it's been really good. He's successful and things are going well there for him. So yeah, that's, that's the advice I would have for especially young, yeah, just younger entrepreneurs do it
Brandon:piece of advice. You know, we say in, in, in the investing world, like the best place to, the best time to invest in the market was a year ago. Second best time is today. Like, man, there's so many things that's true for, you know, like
Jason:Yeah, yeah,
Brandon:personally in our lives, like, Hey, the. The best time to ask for forgiveness was the moment you sinned against your spouse. And the second best time is right now. This is like, there's so many things and entrepreneurship certainly fits in that category as well.
Jason:yeah, yeah. So tell us a little bit about your family, Brandon.
Brandon:Yeah. My, my wife and I have been married now for almost 19 years because of being married so young in life. And, um, we have two boys. Uh, I'm only 38 years old, but we have a 16 year old almost going, going on 17 and a 13 year old son as well. Both, both boys, man. I just, I have a blast with them. This is such a fun, interesting, unique, challenging, beautiful season of parenting as a dad because I'm learning in this whole shift that they talk about of like, Hey, Early on, like it's, it's mom and, and her, and her cub as she nurses them. And like, there's, there's something about that. And then there's the discipline stage. And now we're in this like coach stage and I'm realizing like how much time, how little time I have left to invest in my sons. Even my wife and I are planning this lifelong trip later this year to Alaska. And I was like, you know, if it doesn't work now, we could do it next year. And she's like, Next year is like our last summer with our kids and they talk about that. I think there's like this movement out there called like 18 summers and it's this whole idea of like how little time you have with your kids and like using that time to its fullest. And I read a great book last year called, uh, the intentional father. by John Tyson. Cannot recommend this book enough. What a beautiful picture of what it looks like to intentionally lead sons as, as a dad. And,
Jason:yeah, nice.
Brandon:yeah, I've been a lot of really cool opportunities to invest in them this past year and implement a lot of that manhood initiation ceremonies, man dates, daddy date nights with my younger son, just really beautiful investment opportunities.
Jason:That's great, that's great. I, uh, I never regret, so our kids are, let's say, almost 30, 25, and uh, 19. And, uh, yeah, I don't regret ever, any of the time that we went and did stuff and spent together. I should have done more. Um, I'm glad that I did as much as I did. I'm very glad that we have, uh, our oldest kids now are still around. So I was just, you know, texting my oldest son today about some stuff and, you know, he's, he's still is open to advice at times. So I give it when it's asked for, and that's a huge blessing to, to still pour into their lives. So that's good.
Brandon:That's awesome, man.
Jason:What about your faith, Brandon? What's that look like? How'd you come to know the Lord young kid, you know, it sounds like maybe you were raised in the church Tell us a little bit about
Brandon:Yeah. I remember filling out an application once to, it was to teach at this classical Christian school that I met. And it was like, tell us your testimony. And I literally just quoted, um, uh, Titus chapter three. Like I used to be, I used to hate other people and be hated by men until the loving kindness of God, my savior appeared in Jesus Christ. Christ, you know, I w I grew up most of my life in what would be by adjective in adjective form, a Christian household. Um, but there wasn't a deep love for the gospel. It wasn't any sense of mission or purpose or calling or love of scripture or a discipline of prayer or spiritual spiritual rhythms in my household. We would go, you know, kind of CNE club, Christmas and Easter and big events. My mom was Catholic. Um, but at one point, I think, I think what's so beautiful about like the way God saved me was that, I really fell in love with his disciples. Like I fell in love with men who looked like Jesus. I fell in love with men who were on fire for Christ. And I remember at a Christian camp that my dad sent me to meeting a man who was drinking some joy juice that I wanted access to. I was like, man, whatever you got going on in your life, like I want it in mine. And I started to see peers my age in a church, a youth group that I started going to who were on fire for Jesus. And I was like. These people are different. And there was this realization where I came to, it was like, Either these people are super Christians and I'm just like a nominal Christian or these people are true Christians and I've never tasted of true Christianity and, um, I'm not a huge fan of this, of this author, but, uh, Rick Warren's purpose driven life. I read that book and God used that to absolutely radically change my life. I, in one of the first couple of days, it's like, write a letter to God, surrendering your life. And I was like, I don't, I don't have a journal. Like I've never done this before. And I just remember writing dear Jesus, you know? And I was like, I, I don't want my life anymore. Like I want the life that you have for me.
Jason:Yeah,
Brandon:think that that was like a moment of real repentance of changing my mind and changing my heart and surrendering and saying God not not my life anymore And one of my favorite verses in life 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 that Jesus came that he lived and he died So that those who live me will be saved would no longer live for themselves, but for him who for their sake died and was risen again. And so just that idea of being freed from, from self to live for a greater purpose. It's, it's interesting how much purpose has been a part of my story and how God really unlocks calling and meaning in the gospel and in our identity in Jesus when we surrender our life to him.
Jason:that's so true. Absolutely So to change, say it changes your life is a such an understatement, but it's a whole new, right? Cause you, you die and then you're risen. You're, you're raised from the dead.
Brandon:Yeah. I think, you know, this whole idea of like being a new creation in Christ, I just remember early on in my Christianity, like my, my desire started to change things that I want things that I once loved. I started to hate and things that I once hated, like reading my Bible, I started to love. And all of a sudden the shows that I wanted to watch the books I wanted to read where I wanted to spend my time, like became something so new because of Christ at work inside of me.
Jason:Yeah. Brandon, how old were you when that, when that
Brandon:16 years old. So high school met my, my future bride maybe only four to six months after I made this radical change with my life. And so I remember early on in our dating relationship being a very different person. She's like, she tells me now, she's like, if I would have known you like a year or two beforehand, I would have hated you. And I was like, I don't know.
Jason:You, we wouldn't have been dating.
Brandon:Yeah, absolutely.
Jason:Uh, so, you know, you're a, you're a busy dad, you're a husband, you're, uh, running a business. Uh, what are your spiritual disciplines look like to make sure that you stay in growth and sanctification with the Lord? What's that, what's that look like for
Brandon:Yeah. I'm reading a really good book right now by David Mathis called Habits of Grace. And in the front of this book, He had a quote. It's, it's my, it's become my quote of the year. So far this year, my, my word of the year is disciplines. Maybe a simple way of saying habits of grace, but my quote of the year from David that's helped me really understand disciplines and these spiritual rhythms and habits. He said, I can turn on the faucet, but I can't make the water flow. I can turn on the light switch, but I can't make the electricity flow. And I think spiritual disciplines for me are just, Hey, Brandon, go turn on the faucet, go flick on the light switch and ask that God's going to make the water flow and make the electricity happen. So for me on a daily basis, getting into God's word, I am doing a Bible in two years plan right now, but I'm doing it with my son. and a man that he invited into this equation, uh, probably my best friend in the city. And so every single day we're texting each other in not just like red. I got it done. Like, what'd you learn? How did God challenge you? How did he speak to you? What prayers are you praying this morning? And so every day getting those texts coming in is really helpful. I recently, as a result of my word of the year discipline, resurrected a prayer board that I've used in previous seasons of my life, just in Trello, like a can ban system for managing where having different focuses for
Jason:yeah. Yeah.
Brandon:um, consistently serving in my church. I get to lead worship about once a month, consistently attending a connection group that my wife and I get to host for young married couples. You know, it's, it's, it's investing in God's mission. Hearing from the Lord, listening to the Lord, probably one of the biggest disciplines that I've changed in my life the past five or six years has been a discipline of retreat. I just posted on LinkedIn this
Jason:I saw it today. I saw it today.
Brandon:six years ago, you would have asked me to like go on a retreat. I'm like, Why would I do that? Retreats are for weak people. They're for weak leaders, an excuse for self indulgence and golf and spa days. But some of my peers really challenged me like, no, Brandon, you, you should think differently about this. And I was like, yeah, whatever. And reluctantly, I went on my first retreat probably six years ago at a Starbucks of all places, the worst place you could possibly go for a retreat. And I spent three to four hours, no tech, a pen. Uh, a couple of books, my Bible and a journal, and it was one of the most like creative, inspiring, quiet moments that I had had in months, even in a poor environment like that. And it convinced me that retreat was something really good for us. And so that's become a really important, consistent spiritual discipline for me on a monthly, quarterly and annual basis.
Jason:How does that, how does that look practically? Like, what do you do and who do you go with? I've thought about that before, but you know, going off by myself or with some, but yeah, I'm really interested in what you're doing and what's working for you.
Brandon:Most of the time, my retreat days are half days, so each month taking one or two half days. Eight to twelve, seven to eleven, something like that. I start off with an extended time of prayer and scripture reading. I'm, I'm trying to spend more time listening in those places where silence and solitude become a a regular part of that discipline of hearing from the Lord. It's hard. It's hard. You know, like my sheep hear my voice. Okay. Which one is it in my head? Um, because oftentimes the enemy, um, sounds a lot like the Lord on my last retreat, I spent probably an hour. Conducting my own screw tape letter, writing my own screw tape letter, and it was dear Wormwood, here's the best tactics that you can use against Brandon. And just documenting all of the ways that I see the enemy speak into my life. I, I don't have time for that when I'm like trying to get my Bible study in in the morning, get to work at 8 30 a. m. Clock out at 5 15, get home, make dinner, love all my family, lead them well, really, you know, I don't have time for things like journaling and self learning and maybe doing, um, uh, like a self assessment, like another like disc or like a, uh, something like that, like learning about me learning about what God's how God's wired me. I usually go. away by myself on these retreats, but we actually created, it's on my website, brandonmichaelwest. com slash retreat hyphen guide brandonmichaelwest. com slash retreat hyphen guide. We, I created a seven page guide for my team to help them learn how to retreat. It was so interesting as I rolled this out, like, you know, you ask the people around the room, how many of you guys have ever gone? On a retreat just to get alone, silence and solitude. Like the, the, the percentage of people, even in Christian circle is just so low.
Jason:one, 5%, 1%.
Brandon:for that. Ain't nobody got time for that. Like, this is something we have to discipline ourselves for. And I've just, by, by being intentional, by submitting to other leaders in my life, who I want to be like, who are saying this is important to me, to you. But me not agreeing. Has been one of those things that's just brought a whole new level of, uh, spiritual awareness and, and a cool new rhythm into my life. So we, we give away that retreat for free on my website.
Jason:we'll put a link to it. Where do you go? Where do you go for your monthly
Brandon:That's one of the hardest things to find because Starbucks isn't a good place. Um, uh, uh, a church, a prayer room, um, a library. One of my favorite ones is like a nice hotel lobby because there's just, you can just find like often a quiet space there. It's modern. It's like, well, it's, it's well air conditioned. There's maybe food right there for you.
Jason:some coffee. Yeah.
Brandon:Yeah. But certainly if you're like a nature person, find a friend who has an arm like find a friend who has an Airbnb. And they're like, is it available? Is it free? I'm not, I won't even sleep in it. Can I just sit out on the porch somewhere like find finding those quiet spots out in nature? I love to just set up a hammock. Hammocking is life for me. Um, I love to just lay in a good hammock for a couple hours, read journal, think, listen, go on a walk. Those are great options.
Jason:Nice. Good. That's good advice. That is really good advice. I have, uh, for several years, there's a close, close friend of mine who he's, we, we don't live near each other anymore. Um, an hour or so away, but long enough, far enough where we don't see each other. But every fall for several years, we've gone and did a, a two day camping. It's, you know, it's a retreat really. We both, he's a, he's a full time pastor. You know, I'm, he used to be my pastor until we moved away from that area. But just to get away and, you know, cook over a campfire and talk and walk, we go hiking and it is so refreshing.
Brandon:My latest retreat was my first one ever to go with other people and a group that I'm a part of C12, a faith center, peer advisory forum. We met up with a bunch of the men in that group early on a Friday morning. Spend an hour or so in Bible study together and then just went and separated for the next three hours in just different spots all over this beautiful, uh, watery lakeside house. And then came back together, did lunch together, pay anything you want to share, anything the Lord was doing inside of you during that time and getting to hear from each other on, on those things, not creating pressure. You know, I think it's like, if you just think every retreat is going to be, you getting this big diamond from the Lord, like sometimes it's just the sweet beauty of being reminded of the love of God for me and Jesus. Like those are awesome retreat. I need that just as much as I need God downloading the next 10 years of my life. But honestly, I think it's that the consistency of doing so, where we can more clearly hear that voice of the shepherd in, in our life and just, Like getting alone, just knowing God, if you want to download anything to me, my hands are wide open and I want, I just want to know you better. That's, that's eternal life to know God.
Jason:Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. And I've gotten a lot better over the last several years of just doing that in the morning. Really having a true disciplined, quiet, like literally a quiet time, you know, and it's, it's been, let's say it's, you know, spiritually been life changing for me and it's, uh, That's incredible. So yeah, I've thought about, yeah, more monthly, quarterly, doing things like that. So that's, I'm going to check that out. I'll link to that. I'll link to that guide. Hey, Brandon, when you, I want to talk about leadership a little bit here. I know that you think a lot about it and you're really, um, you know, you try to be very proactive in your leadership with your team. You, you, and I've, LinkedIn. We've gotten to know each other a little bit. And so I want to hear from you. What are your, like core leadership principles when you think about whether it's at work or at home that you just always go back to that you build, you know, kind of your foundation
Brandon:Yeah. Intentionality, love, faithfulness, generosity, and character. Those, those five things, those are my personal core values in life. I think they guide everything in my life. Not only In the workplace, but also at home. What does that look like? When I shared my personal core values with my team recently, the one that was, they were most curious about was the core value of intentionality. I spoke about John Tyson's, the intentional father. I think everything in my life that is healthy. is built off intentional rhythms. I was hanging out with a friend recently and I just said to him, I was like, Hey, I, I just want to present this idea to you. If this would be a delight. Great. Let's do this. If not, I feel like you're super busy or this is another thing to add to your schedule. Like I am okay with you just saying no, but I would love to build our friendship more. I would love to really invest in our friendship more and eternity. Like he was like, that would be such a delight to me as well. And he said, all we need to do is find the right rhythm. And I was like, I guess I guess I guess it is that easy. I guess that's it. And I said out loud of something at that moment that I've never said out loud before. I just said, Yeah, I guess you're right. Everything in my life that is healthy. is on a rhythm and everything that is not on a rhythm is not healthy. And so I think some of the things that guide me, how do we bring love into the workplace? I'll, I'm doing a talk in Gainesville next week, uh, all about, it's called love in the workplace. And you know, so much of our, of our culture, at least growing up in the management culture of the past was like love, emotions, all that squishy stuff that doesn't enter the workforce. I think our culture is shifting on that. But I think for us as leaders, as we've shifted and begun to embrace that, we need to ask the question, what does intentionality look like as I try to create a culture and foster culture and be myself the leader of a culture of love and the workforce. And one of the big things that from a leadership discipline standpoint that it requires of me. is slowing the heck down.
Jason:Yeah.
Brandon:Like, my wife says, like, there's two versions of Brandon. It's either like, like the gentle, loving, intentional leader, Brandon, or it's the what she calls efficient mode. Brandon,
Jason:Oh,
Brandon:and it's so like, Those two things, efficiency and love, even in my life and leadership, they're opposed to one another. Like, I cannot coexist in efficient Brandon and loving mode Brandon. I just can't. I have to slow way down. I have to stop and ask questions. I have to connect with people on a personal level. I have to care about what's going on in their life. I take a discipline.
Jason:so, it's so inefficient.
Brandon:Love it's so inefficient. It really is, dude. Yeah, it's, um, my, my family and I, we really enjoy watching a show from the early two thousands as a family called monk. It's a story of like this, like super ADHD, OCD, um, cop. And like, he's because he has so many needs with his OCD. He's very like self focused. Well, the other day we were watching an episode and his assistant was going through a really hard time in life. And he turned and said something that was like, Shocking. I mean, usually you can feel like the air gets sucked out of the room as we're watching the show. He turns and he goes, Hey, is there anything that I can do to serve you? And we're all thinking like, he's never said this before. It was like a dot, dot, dot moment. Cause he goes, is there anything I can do to serve you or help you? That wouldn't be inconvenient for me.
Jason:That's great.
Brandon:Like love requires self inconveniencing and it is so hard. It is so hard last night coming home. A long day at work. I, I went and had to drop off my son at something. He realized he forgot something, had to drive back, drive it over to him. I'm driving home. I'm like, I just want to go home and cook a really nice dinner. dinner. I go into Publix 10 minutes of trying to check out because this gift card is crashing the system, other system. And I go home and I'm like, all right, great. I'm going to cook a nice dinner. It's going to be a great time. And my family's like, Hey, you forgot to unload the dishwasher in the morning. And as a result, it's still not unloaded. And there's a giant pile of dishes from the whole day. And it was so hard in that moment, emotionally for me to go. I need to slow down. Love is inefficient. It's about inconveniencing myself. And I got, I got into a really hard place emotionally while I'm doing this, trying to recover afterwards. Like, this is what love requires. It requires that self sacrifice. I'm learning it at home. I'm learning it at work. I want to be that leader for the people I'm around, but it requires a slowing and an inconveniencing and a commitment to inefficiency.
Jason:it does. And I, I am wired to be efficient. I love being efficient and I have to remind myself of that. I mean, it's, yeah, you can build it. Yeah. And then the K what you call the rhythm, the cadences. And your life when you put those in the right things in place and put them in your calendar and be intentional. I've tried to be intentional and, you know, spending time, but we have one son still at home, you know, booking some time each week. Just, we're just going to hang out on that evening, whatever you want to do, you want to watch something, you want to play a game. But if you don't, if you're, I love that thought of intentionality, because if not, it's reactivity, I think is almost the
Brandon:Mm. Yes.
Jason:just going to wake up and follow whatever. thing is the biggest crisis in my, and I think any business leader, we know that's not good, right? We know that that's where businesses get into a state of chaos, but I think we let it in our, in our personal lives, our spiritual lives, where we don't build that intentionality, that rhythm in there to make sure that we're doing it's what we go to church every Sunday. We know that as believers, how important it is. And, you know, we stick to that discipline.
Brandon:As leaders. As leaders, if we think that every ministry opportunity and every love opportunity is just going to come knocking on our door, we will, we will fall exceedingly short on our opportunities actually in reality available to us as leaders to be intentional, to ask the right questions, to circle back with people, to read through the lines, to ask questions like, you didn't seem like yourself today. Is everything okay? Like, what's going on? Those are the doors to gospel and care and love and ministry. And they only come with intentionality. Every morning when I walk into the office, I'm there before everybody do my Bible study time. They walk in, they see me sitting there reading my Bible. When, when work starts and everybody's there at their desk, I just go around, just get up. I just, I just get up. I walk around the office. I greet every single person by name, give them a hug, check in with them. Everyone by one, just around the office. That's so inefficient. Like I could,
Jason:That's so inefficient. You're making me like, Oh, I can't, but it's right. It's
Brandon:every single time we join a zoom call, I go through the zoom tiles and I welcome every single person by name. I want them to feel known, loved and valued and seen as a person. Not just thank you team. Welcome. No. Hey Janelle. So good to see you today. Derek. Welcome to the call, buddy, man. I love you. You know, just like how do we help people feel loved on the call? It takes slowing down.
Jason:I, I gotta remind myself of that all the time because I get, I do, man, I work in opera. You know, I, I think it was John, I think John Maxwell and one of his leadership books, you know, said walk through the crowd slowly, you know, just take the time to stop and talk and just, you know, I'm good about saying, Hey, how you doing? Good morning. While I'm moving, I just keep moving. Instead of, you know, maybe stop and ask them, you know, and, and, and if they actually respond and want to talk, it's okay. Don't roll your eyes. You can like take the
Brandon:Yeah, dude.
Jason:Yeah. To do that. So that's, yeah, that's super important. Hey, as a young leader, uh, Brandon, I always like to talk about this cause you know, I'm, I like to think that this podcast helps other leaders. That's the whole idea here. So when you were a young leader, what was something that you struggled with? And you know, what have you done to manage through that? Have you overcome it? talk to us a little bit about that. That's
Brandon:young leaders, like we can often struggle with an imposter syndrome, like how am I qualified to lead this? Am I even really a leader? I don't have a director title or head ahead of business title. I don't have a C suite E E level title. I think what I've learned a lot about leadership over the past 20 years of studying it and now writing about it and speaking to thousands of people about this leadership. All it is, is influence and we say at first, like everyone's a leader. The only way that we can authentically say that that is true is because every single person has influence. You have influence when you walk home. And into your home with your family, with your extended family, you have it in your connection group, you have it in your church, you have it with your friend group, you have it among your peers at your office, like leadership is just influence. I remember we, we shut down the business every year for two full days and take them to the global leadership summit. I remember doing a debrief with our team afterwards, and one of the people on our team shared in this debrief, she's like, it's towards the end. And finally, like, you know, people are starting to be honest and finally like fully open up as, as a room typically does. And she just goes, let me just be honest for a minute. If I'm being honest, like I walked into that room, not believing that I was a leader. And I walked out of that room believing that I was. And I think I thanked her for, for sharing that. And I said, I said, Alison, all you learned the last two days is what everybody else already knew was true about you. You are a leader. You are a leader worth following. You set the pace for us in these ways. Here are your gifts and callings that you bring to the table. Leadership is influence. And so I, I think to the young leader to just go, Hey, How could you leverage your influence even when you lack authority? Clay Scroggins wrote his first book, this yellow cover, How to Lead When You're Not in Charge. How to lead when you're not in charge. And the subtitle is how to leverage influence when you lack authority. That is what leadership looks like for you in this season. I don't, I don't lead everything I'm a part of in life, right? I lead foes. I get to walk in, I can shot call all day long, whatever I want to do. That's not true of every area of my life and leadership. And so even, even for us as leaders, like we're leading and being led, we're leading and being led in each of those environments, I'm just trying to bring. By God's grace, some level of character, some level of, of a willing heart and a servant heart and my gifts to the table. I remember when I had my first ever meeting with the pastors that I'm, I'm a part of now the group of pastors I'm part of at the church I go to, I just walked in, um, this is years ago and I just had this sheet of paper and it went over Michael. Michael, um, Hyatt's desire zones, which are like this full, this two by two quadrant of what are you gifted at? You're highly proficient at, or not proficient at, and then what are you passionate about or not passionate about? And so I'm high passion, high competence, my desire zone, my low competence, low passion, drudgery zone. And it's had these four zones. And I was like, here's what I love to do. And I'm passionate about, and I'm good at, Here are things like, don't put me in children's ministry, low, low passion, low competence. Those four areas are what we can walk in and just go, Hey, here's what I'm gifted at. Use me however you want. Like all of a sudden you're going to get called on to lead. You're going to get called on to leverage that influence to, to, to, to lead and to love other people, young leaders.
Jason:Yeah. No, that's good. I think, uh, yeah. It reminds me of this saying, again, this is a John Maxwell quote, leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less. And, and I think that we do forget, even if we're not in a leadership position, as you were talking through that, I think that people on, I have a team, some are individual contributors at work and some are not, but even the individual contributors, I've tried to communicate that, that you are, you are a leader, you're a leader in this operation. People look to you, you have influence. some of its relationship influence, some of its technical expertise influence, but absolutely. So, you know, what are you, what are you doing with that? Right.
Brandon:Right. That's, that's the question. What are you doing with your gifts, your talents and your opportunities at hand? If someone is not a leader, it's not because they lack an opportunity or a title. It's because they're not choosing to lead. They're not choosing to pursue a character. Being, being first a leader worth following with your character. That's the first part, be a leader worth following your character. They're not choosing that. And then they're not choosing to be open, honest, vulnerable, and sharing with the things that they've been given, that they've been taught, that they've learned, that they've been mentored in with other people. All of a sudden that character and that influence is the heart of leading other people.
Jason:Hey, another question for you, Brandon. So the team you lead, you're the, you're the founder, you're the, you're the big cheese. So you kind of can do what you want. Right. But how, but I also know that you have people on your team who aren't believers and you serve customers who aren't. ministry organizations, how do you practically, how do you honor Christ through the work that you do at FOS? Both with your team and then also with your customers.
Brandon:I believe that this whole concept of a Christ honoring business happens in two different ways. On the one hand, there is a sense in which I'll quote Martin Luther here, where he said, you don't have to put a Christian fish on your shoe to be a Christian shoemaker. Like God is honored in your excellence. But the truth is, as much as I believe that that's true, I want to do excellent work, God glorifying work, honoring the Lord in the quality of everything that we provide at my agency. There is also this other component that goes, Hey, I don't know if I'm just like when I started my company, I don't know if I just wasn't a good enough logo designer, but nobody ever looked at my logos and we're like, What must I do to be saved? This logo is so good. What must I do to be safe? That just didn't happen. In my life. Yes. Be ready to make a defense for the hope that within you. But the truth is we, we can do more than just excellent work at FOS. Our mission is to cultivate true flourishing in people and organizations while reflecting the love of Jesus to the world. We call our business model. That's not some lifestyle business, some high growth EBITDA like we call our business a business as a ministry, a business that functions as a ministry and we get to express while, while doing excellent work at the same time, we get to express care, love, ministry, and evangelism to five groups of people that we really care about at FOS, our team members, their families, our clients, our our vendors and suppliers, and then our local and global community. And for those five groups of people, we want to care for their physical needs, their emotional needs, and their spiritual needs. Those five groups in those three ways create a 15 cell matrix, if you will, that we call our strategic plan for ministry. And we have a team at foes called our care team. Who's this voluntary team at foes who, whose mission is to create a culture of care, love, and ministry across the whole company. And so they voluntarily meet up to kind of guide those efforts. You know, you, you joked about me being the big cheese in my company. The truth is, I feel very, um, indebted to the people I lead alongside of early on in the company. Oh, Brandon, you built a great company. Maybe that was true because it was so small, but at this point, I'm like, There are leaders at this company who I find myself very. accountable to to set a culture and a pace of purpose and care and love and ministry. And I've raised up this team of people who's really passionate about doing it. Now, the question is what happens when you have somebody on your team who maybe like faith, Christianity, Jesus, like That's not a part of their story. That's not a part of who they've been and who they are at this moment. I had a really interesting onboarding experience with a new team member. At one point three hours of going through mission and purpose and ministry and all that kind of stuff, here's, here's where welcome to the team. This is what you're part of. He was like, can I ask a question? I said, that's what I'm here for, man. What, what's your question? He said, Do we only hire Christians here at FOS? I said, first of all, no, that would be illegal.
Jason:Right. Yeah,
Brandon:we want to invite people into this mission and everyone should have a place at this table. And he was like, phew. And I was like, why, why, why do you ask that man? And he's like, I sent my family, our website. And the first thing they texted me back was, did you see that they have Jesus on their about page? And I was like, dude, how did you answer that question? And he said, if our mission is about exemplifying the love of Jesus in the workforce, I see in this historical figure, a love that is worth exemplifying to the world. And so if that's our mission, I can be on board for that. And I turned around and I said, That is why I hired you. I see, I see that in you and that love. And we're trying to make a seat for anyone at the table to walk in while they know, Hey, there's this very missional component. We're going to pray at team meetings. We're going to have prayer pauses that are voluntary that you can come to. We're going to do devotionals at our quarterly vision meetings where I'm going to set a vision that starts with God's word. We're going to, we're going to bring care, love, and ministry to you. To your family, vendors, clients, suppliers, and the local global community. We're going to invite you into all of those things. That's an invitation rather than an obligation afterwards.
Jason:yeah, yeah. That's great. I love how you're, I mean, just it's fascinating and exciting and, uh, that you're, you're able to integrate it that deeply into the organization and, you know, love on people that come that, uh, you know, aren't Christ followers, uh, yet, you know, whether or not he ever calls them to that point, but that you can, you know, work beside them and with them and they get to see, they get to see how you lead and how the other believers in the organization work and act. And that's, that's amazing.
Brandon:You know, I'm confident that our influence and what God's doing through us as leaders and then these businesses that try to function for the glory of God, like there's always more stories than will ever. Here about in this life, but one of the people on my team, Janelle Cruz, um, an amazing person. She's, she was with me for three years at the beginning of her career, those first three years, you know, Hey, come to this Bible study. Hey, come to this connection group thing. Hey, come and join me on Sunday. Hey, you want to read this book? And there's just no, no, no, no, that's not, that's not where I'm at. No, I don't want to do that. No, no. She goes through our leadership development program. It's a three year program, uh, focused on leading self, leading others and leading an organization as an executive. And in the, in the first set of the curriculum in the final month, there's a month that focuses on purpose. And she had to give a, a talk on purpose to the team. And I remember checking in with her and going, Hey, where are you at on this? Uh, have you got your like theme selected? You ready for this talk that you're going to give? She's like, I have some ideas, but honestly, I'm really lost. And I was like, well, what do you think your purpose is? And she's like, I just don't know. And I said, okay, well, what are the things that you're passionate about? She shared a few things with me. And I just, I looked her in the face. I said, Hey, I just want you to know that if God is not real. And none of the things that you just mentioned are of any value in this life. And with, with tears in her eyes, she turned to me and she said, then how do I know God? And I bought her a MacArthur study Bible, tabbed out the book of James, the first book I ever read as a Christian, the, the, the gospel of John. And I handed it to her and said, this is where I would start. And a month later, she was. baptized in our church. And three months, three months later, she was serving in children's ministry. And so what does it look like to just be faithful to use the convictions that you've been given as, as a leader, the things that you love to lead people in and how do you invite other people into that sharing vulnerably your story, being, being the chief repenting officer in your company, setting a pace for what godliness and holiness and a love for Jesus looks like a love for the gospel and for other people. And maybe, maybe we could be, maybe By God's grace, that fragrance of Christ, even in the workplace as a leader, not because we're getting everything right, doing everything perfect, but because we're relying on a good, loving, steadfast, faithful God who's, who's leading us to be more like him.
Jason:Yeah. That's good, man. I love it. I love that story. Uh, I want to talk about who you follow for authors and how you keep yourself sharp. But before we do that, so podcast, authors, I want to talk about your book because And that's not why you, I invited you on the show. I want people to know that Brandon didn't come to me and say, I want to be on your show. I want to tell everybody about my book. That was not it. I was connected to Brandon through a mutual friend who also recommended your book and I read it and I loved it and I've read a lot of business and leadership books over the years and I think you talked about some things. that people, I've never read before, but are absolutely biblical, a hundred percent. And in fact, when I read your book, a, um, a former mentor of mine, someone I highly respect in my, um, line of work had recently, um, lost their job. And this is someone who I just, a tremendous amount of respect. And obviously that's a tough, Tough, uh, time to go through. And so I, I gifted him your book. So I sent that to him through the ease of Amazon. But, um, talk a little bit about that. Cause I, I would really recommend Christian business leaders, uh, pick it up and read it. I think it's, it's a, it's a must read. So can you give us a kind of a summary of what the content is?
Brandon:The title of the book is it is not your business to succeed. It's based on a CS Lewis quote in his, um, collected letters called letters to Malcolm. He writes to his friend and he says, Hey Malcolm, it is not your business to succeed, but only to do what is right. And then to entrust the results to a faithful God. And I think for me, um, I remember when I was writing the book, my, my publisher said, Hey, you need to write a foreword. I was like, I hate forewords. Nobody reads those things. He goes, you need to write a foreword. I was like, fine, what do I write about? And he said, write why you wrote the book. Why did you write this book? And I remember a time when my wife was reading through it for the first time where she commented on this Google doc and she highlighted this section and she commented and she said, wow, babe, so good. Mic drop. Can I remind you of this later? The truth is I wrote this book because I need it. What I need to be reminded of constantly is that my sense of success in life, my sense of worth and identity. is not tied to the things that I so naturally tie them to. Who are the leaders that we exalt in society? It's the people who made a bunch of money, sold out this big business, won this award, did this thing. And those can be platforms for good and for the gospel and for promotion and advertising and all those kinds of things. But when I start tying my sense of success and worth as a leader to those things, I put myself into a place. of fear. As soon as I tie something that I can lose to my sense of identity and purpose and worth, I'm going to live constantly in a place of fear, wondering, well, who would I become? Who would I be? What value would I have if I lost on the blank? There isn't we, we, we, in the book, I refer to it as the outcome based mindset. The outcome based mindset says, I am what I build. I am my outcomes, the faithfulness mindset. On the other hand, it's not about outcomes. It's where Jesus says, well done, good and faithful servant. You've been faithful and little. I can entrust you with much enter into the joy of your master. Faithfulness is not about outcomes. Faithfulness is actually about trusting God, being who God's called me to be, doing the things that God's called me to do, and then trusting God for those outcomes. What a freeing mindset. When I'm in that place in my life and leadership, what freedom I feel, what peace I feel to just know, God, I'll do what you've asked me to do. You do what you, whatever you want on the other side
Jason:Yeah, that's right. Even if it's not, even if it's not fun or even if it's some suffering or even if it's, you can, I don't know. I love the book. I loved it because I have to remind myself of that all the time. I mean, I'm a numbers data driven, you know, you want to know what a good day is for me. That's when everything went right at work. That's right. But, but was I faithful? And I had, I do have, since I've read that book, I remind myself of that more. So, yeah, go in, be faithful. Were you faithful today? And if you were faithful, then you can lay your head down at night. Now, not perfect. We'll never be there, but were we faithful in what God called us to do? And were we faithful even in the outcomes weren't what we wanted? Well, we'll go be faithful tomorrow again and know that, you know, God is sovereign and, you know, in all things, He has good in store for those that love Him.
Brandon:mmm, so good Jason. Somebody texted me a picture the other day of their desk and underneath their desk they had a sticky note attached to it and all it said is Faithfulness equals success.
Jason:Yeah,
Brandon:that's that's it right there.
Jason:that is good. So, who do you listen to? Who do you read? Tell us, tell us, uh, who you would recommend that we, that we follow to keep our leadership, um, senses sharp. Oh,
Brandon:on Patrick Lencioni Um, I, I remember, I remember the first book I ever read by him,
Jason:This is, today I got, this was given to me today, so this is on my reading
Brandon:dude, I read, I think the first book I ever read for him by him was the four obsessions of an extraordinary executive, either that or the five dysfunctions of a team. I read it on a cruise. I got back from the cruise and I ordered every book he had ever written. And as soon as he comes up with a new one, I always buy it. He's such a great leadership guy. Um, he really understands even the advantage is like this idea of like. If we believe that culture eats strategy for breakfast, Jim Collins, then how might we structure our entire advantage and systems and processes all around that particular advantage if we, if actually true and how organizational health trumps everything else in business. So I'm a big Patrick Lencioni fan. I've become. Big, um, Clay Scroggins fan. I meant, I mentioned his book, um, uh, how to lead when you're not in charge. John Tyson's the intentional father. Honestly, I read from a plurality of sources and I've always got a book for everything. Um, I want to put out kind of my top books of all time. I've got a strong list that I've, that I've, that I've been working on now for, for many years. Um, to be honest though, like I just want to be consistent in my, in my reading. Um, If you read one book a month, you become in like the top 10 percent of all readers in the entire planet. I just want to be faithful. I just want to be consistent. I just want to make sure I'm, I'm getting poured into my people that I know, like, and trust at the beginning of the year. I try and set like, here are my 12 books I'm going to read this year. If something pops up in the middle or wind up hating one, it's hard for me to abandon a book emotionally, really.
Jason:It is
Brandon:I was, I was, I was told recently at a leadership conference, start a ton of books, finish good ones and reread the great ones. I want, I want to
Jason:Yeah.
Brandon:of leader.
Jason:Yeah. My, and you can't see it. It's you have your bookshelf behind you. Mine's this way, but I'm, and I've read over, you know, over my life. I'm a reader. I love reading. And, um, But the ones on my bookshelf, I mean, I probably only have 18, 12 or 18, but those are the best I've ever read. And oftentimes I'll either thumb back through them or I'll give them away. Um, but yeah, yeah, those are the life changers for me. So no, I appreciate, I appreciate that recommendation. Lencioni, have you ever met him? Have you had a chance to meet
Brandon:Um, I got to hear him speak once, um, but I'll actually be, um, a part of introducing him at the C12 current 2025 conference in May this year. So that's going to be that. Blast and
Jason:Okay.
Brandon:excited about that.
Jason:So you probably get to meet him, I'll bet, at
Brandon:I have basically demanded that as payment for my master of ceremonies duties. Um, so if they come through, I've also requested goldfish, um, one real one and one bag of, uh, like food goldfish. There was a bunch of things in my rider. Um, we'll see if they actually come through on any of them.
Jason:That's hilarious. I want to see a picture of you and Patrick on LinkedIn. That's what I'll be, I'll be praying that you can do that. I was going to actually come to that conference because I've, I've, uh, been speaking with someone from C12. I'm not a member, but um, so I'm, you know, following it. But unfortunately I'll be traveling like literally the week or two before that for an entire week. And I'm like, it just won't work. But C12 is a pretty amazing organization for people who are looking for a peer advisory group that are kind of CEO business owner level really recommend that they check that out for another resource for them. So Yeah, so, uh, hey, before we wrap this up, what's a good way, I know you're super active on LinkedIn. I really recommend people connect with you there. Other ways though, I know you've got website, business website, talk a little bit about that.
Brandon:two websites. Brandon, michaelwest. com is my personal one booking speaking, uh, linking to a podcast. We, we did two years ago called the FOS life and leadership podcast, our top 10 life and leadership lessons learned in our first 10 years of business. And then FOS's website, FOS creative. com P H O S creative. com. We work with, uh, small and midsize businesses in the U S one to 10 million in revenue in healthcare, uh, in nonprofit, in education, and then service based businesses, a lot of B2B and it's a blast. We have a team of 24 people who are really passionate about what we do as a company and the why behind we, uh, why
Jason:Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So, if you have a marketing need and you're in a, running a small business like that. Reach out to folks, reach out to Brandon and his team. I've seen his work. It's beautiful. I, you, you have a very much a, a talent for taking concepts and visualizing them. That's one thing I really enjoy about the work I've seen you do online. So that and read the book for sure. Read the book, follow Brandon on LinkedIn. So thank you, brother. I appreciate your time. I know you're super busy. You got a family. I heard them a little bit in the background. They're probably ready for dinner. If you're the cook in the house. So I appreciate you coming on the show, man. Thank you.
Brandon:pleasure. Thank you for the invite, Jason.
Jason:Yeah, and I want to thank each of my listeners again for tuning in this month. Uh, please take a moment to subscribe to the show And if you have any comments or suggestions, I'd love to hear those as well So there's options that you can do that to send me a text email Let me know comment on the video And I hope that you'll be back next month as we meet another leader who is striving to honor christ in their work
