CEO of Our Daily Bread - Matt Lucas

In this episode of the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast, host Jason Woodard welcomes Matt Lucas, President and CEO of Our Daily Bread Ministries. 

They discuss Matt's unexpected career path from aspiring educator to leading a major global ministry, emphasizing the role of faith and biblical principles in leadership. Matt shares insights on managing a large, diverse team and coping with the intricacies of an international ministry, including dealing with geopolitical challenges. 

The conversation also delves into Matt’s personal faith journey, his approach to leadership, his family life, and the importance of humility and teachability. Listeners will gain valuable lessons on leading with a servant's heart and fostering a cohesive, efficient team while staying true to spiritual values.

Transcript

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Jason 0:00

Happy new year, welcome to 2025. And to the biblical leadership at work podcast. I'm your host, Jason watered. And this month's episode, we will meet Matt Lucas, president and CEO of our daily bread ministries. Listen in, as we learn about Matt's unusual career trajectory and how God led him to lead this renowned and influential ministry. Matt. We'll also share some insightful ways in which he tries to lead with biblical principles, as well as sharing a bit about how the ministry is organized and structured. I hope you will find this conversation as edifying and insightful as I did. All right. Well, Matt Lucas, brother. I appreciate you taking the time to join me today. Matt is the CEO of Our Daily Bread Ministries, and I'm super excited to have you on the show today, brother. Thank you for joining me.

Matt 0:54

Thank you. Glad to be here,

Jason 0:55

So let's get started. Like I always do. Tell me about your career background and maybe go back to university college just after high school and run us through what you What the Lord did to get you to, uh, leading that great organization that I think many of us, if not all of us are familiar with.

Matt 1:14

well, it's definitely one that was unplanned. Even though I was a young boy, I had dreams of one day being a CEO. I can remember that I was very entrepreneurial. But by the time I was in high school and early college, I decided I wanted to be a teacher. And I was really interested in English. And so I did my undergraduate and my master's and my doctorate all in English literature. And, uh, what Right through that back to back to back, um, was done by, I was 26 and was thinking about going and teaching at a college in a college or university, particularly small Christian university. Um, my dream was to be in the classroom for 50 years at teaching students. Um, before I ended up there, I taught high school for a few years. Um, I completed my coursework by 26. I had to take a couple more years to finish up my dissertation, so I did that. I was, um, in, uh. Teaching high school and really loved it and really felt like, you know, whether it's high school or college wanted to do that was invited back about 10 years after graduating from my alma mater to my alma mater and, uh, was, uh, teaching was actually asked to lead right off the bat is in an administrative position. And I would do a little bit of teaching, but it wouldn't be in English literature. Um, so I said yes, because I thought this would be a way back to the classroom and did that and started out as a director of the first graduate program at Corbett University. And from there out, it was just this long process of getting further and further away from the classroom and never being able to get

Jason 2:50

and was Cor, you said it was Corbin university. That's where you got your education

Matt 2:54

Yeah, it's, yeah, it's in Salem, Oregon. It's a small Christian liberal arts school, um, similar to Cornerstone, which I believe that

Jason 3:02

Yeah. That's where I, uh, yeah, I got my MBA from Cornerstone. Love that school.

Matt 3:06

Yeah, so both schools are sister schools in the sense that they're related to the same denomination, at least affiliated in the background. So I was aware at Cornerstone when I was, actually, I thought about it one time going to Cornerstone in my undergraduate years. Okay. Before I started.

Jason 3:20

So, it, you were doing administrative leadership at Corbin and then, um, So how, then what happened? Why did you

Matt 3:27

So, yes.

Jason 3:28

did you go from there to our daily bread? Nope.

Matt 3:34

I was, I'm a director. I'm 32 years old and I'm serving as a director and I've never done, never, I've never led in a formal role and I had to start a program from scratch in three months, had to hire people, had to lead faculty, And I'm, yeah, I'm just making this up as I go trying to figure it out. Thankfully, I had a really good mentor. My my boss, the dean of education was a phenomenal leader, strong woman and really was good. She had raised sons and she was really good at mentoring young men. Um, just natural at it. And so she spent a lot of time encouraging me. And so from there, two years later, she stepped away into into the provost role at the university and suggested I take on the dean role that she vacated. And my first response was no, I want to go to the classroom. Um, but six months later, I'm like, Okay, I'm doing the job as the interim dean of miles would take the title. So I do that for two years and She leaves to go to another university and vacates the provost position, and she suggested to my future president, or my current president, but my future boss, that, hey, you should look at at Matt Lucas. And I was actually on my way to Indonesia to go Be a dean in liberal arts and teach it teach English. Like I I'm going to Indonesia to go back to the classroom and be a dean and Anyway, a lot. It was a long story how it all worked out. I'm becoming Provost. I'm 36 years old. I'm a Provost I have no desire to this was not my trajectory But yeah, I think other people saw some leadership skills administrative skills in me and I just started discovering that I, um, yeah, it just was natural. So from there, from provost to executive vice president. From executive vice president, I left there and went on to Indiana Wesleyan University where I was chancellor there. Uh, Indiana Wesleyan is the largest Christian school in the CCCU. Coalition of Christian Colleges and Universities, or I'm sorry, the Coalition Council for Christian Colleges and Universities. And, um, yeah, did that for five years and then was headhunted from there into this role, which I was not, you know, I was not looking at one time. I thought I might leave Christian higher education and go to a nonprofit position, but was not looking for this and, um, and surprised as probably a surprise to the next person that I'm in this role. Yeah, it's

Jason 5:50

How long ago was that, Matt?

Matt 5:52

Yeah, so March 1st of 2022 is when I started, so it's about two and a half years from the taping of this. I've been in this role and it's been a good fit. I can really see and look back in my life how God used this or prepared me for this role. Um, when I was a young man, um, before I was still in college, I wanted, I was, I had aspirations to write devotionals and to do, um, curriculum like that. They weren't very good. Um, so, but over the years I kept doing that. I would write, you know, I'd write devotionals, write little things like that throughout. And, you know, by the time I was at Indiana Wesleyan University, I was doing that on a regular basis in my role for, for the school, for the university, for my employees. And I told my wife, I would love to be in a place where I could do this. You know, it's a core part of my job. It's interesting on here. I do write for our devotional material, but I don't do it as much as I would like to do it. The job doesn't give me the freedom to do that kind of reflection, right? But I do get the opportunity. It's kind of hard to say no to the president when he says he's going to write for the for content that and they're gracious. They want me to, but you kind of can say, Hey, um, yeah, I'm the CEO. I'd like to do

Jason 7:03

So I think that, I think that most people, if not everyone listening is familiar with Our Daily Bread, but as because we have it in our church's material that's handed out, can you talk though a little bit about the organization? I mean there's a whole organization, so size, structure, I'd be very, I'm very interested in what that looks like.

Matt 7:23

Yeah, I think most people, yeah, I think a lot of people are familiar with us because of our devotion. Um, we're much bigger than that. We're, we're really a Bible engagement ministry. We have 700 employees around the world. Um, we've got 32 offices, uh, working about 58 languages, um, over 150 countries. So we're about Bible engagements in all aspects, all forms, across all channels, across all media. So we got a media group, we got a multimedia audiovisual group, um, that does feature length films. We've got, um, we do content curriculum for churches, we do the devotional, uh, we do social media, digital, you know, you can just go on and on. So we got a book publishing house, we do about five million dollars, five and a half million dollars in revenue about a year. Uh, And that's just for the publishing and just printing of books that we sell. So, uh, we're about an 80 million, um, total ministry, um, around the world. So it's a, it's a, people are always surprised that we're much bigger than we are and much more complex. So when you have offices around the world, more people work outside the United States, the inside the United States.

Jason 8:31

That was one thing I was going to ask was how many work like there. You're, because you're located, you sit, Around in Grand Rapids is what in that location where you're at.

Matt 8:40

Yeah, so our office here, we have about 275, 280 employees here in Grand Rapids. The rest are outside. Um, I do a lot of travel. And if I'm not traveling, I'm on zoom or working with teams across the world. And so in addition to just leading, you know, it's a midsize business. Ministry, actually probably one of the larger ministries as far as comparing ourselves to other, um, as far as the size and scope, um, to other ministries, but The complexity of actually having employees on the ground doing the work, you know, writing content, doing Bible engagement ministries around the world in various contexts. Yeah, it just creates for a lot of opportunities for, um, engaging people and working through challenges. Usually there's some problem somewhere in the world that's creating an issue for our teams that we have to work through, whether it's geopolitical, economic, or just, you know, Disasters, you know, we had a, you know, an office in Jamaica got hit by the, uh, earthquake flooding in Taiwan affected our Taiwanese office, Myanmar with the civil unrest affected our is affecting right now are our Ukrainian office. We're having to re we're actually starting to shut that down because we just can't continue to work there and pivoting towards, you know, probably Romania or somewhere else. So I mean, yeah, there's always something somewhere that's creating additional challenges for the work we

Jason 10:01

Yeah. Yeah, that I can't imagine. Yeah, that is complex. How what? What is the kind of average size of offices that are in those areas? Half a dozen people or two or three people like what's that look like in those areas?

Matt 10:13

Yeah, so some of our largest offices like Singapore, Indonesia, um, Brazil, um, over 40 people. Um, some of our smaller offices, you know, can have one to two people. Probably the average size is about 10 to 12. Um, so yeah, you know, Australia, um, has got close to 19. So yeah, we The United Kingdom, um, a little over 20. So it's a, each office is unique and engages, um, with their, you know, with their audience and with the work that they're doing on the ground, the churches a little bit differently. Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, just, you know, yeah, depending on the size, you can do certain things, but in a lot of ways there's, there's a replication of the ministry, even on a small team like Sri Lanka that has four people, five people. Um, They're doing in microcosm what we're doing here at Grand Rapids in a lot of its translation, um, or contextualization on their end, but they also do a lot of writing and content that's just specific to the Sri Lankan office working with volunteers and churches.

Jason 11:17

Well, I know that's surprising to me. I mean, you just, like I said, you see the material, you're familiar with it, but I don't know the business behind it. And that is a pretty complex, especially being spread out around the world like that. Um, tell us a little bit about your family, Matt. What's that. situation look like?

Matt 11:31

Yeah, so my wife and I have been married for 31 years. We have six girls. Um, two of them are adopted and we have three grandchildren. Um, the, uh, grant our oldest daughter is adopted into the family when she was a teenager. So, And young, you know, so she came in when we still had little girls. So I'm not that old. Um, but, uh, yeah, it's been great having having her. She actually was one of my high school students.

Jason 11:56

Okay,

Matt 11:57

year teaching. So she was a couch surfer. I taught, I coached soccer. So she actually married one of my soccer players, um, captain of the soccer team. So I've known them since they were, you know, 14.

Jason 12:10

nice.

Matt 12:11

foolish. Um, and then, yeah, we have, and then we have another daughter that we adopted from Namibia. She brought her into our family, um, when she came here to the States and she didn't have anywhere to go and so we just brought her into our family. And then we have another 20, so she's 27 or about to turn 27. We got another 27-year-old that's our biological daughter, and then a 24-year-old, and then twin, identical twin girls who are 20, about to turn 21.

Jason 12:39

Nice.

Matt 12:39

and then like three. Yeah, three. I don't leave our grandkids out. You know, it's yeah, so we've got a 12 year old 10 year old and a little eight year old. So, but they're in Oregon. So I don't get to

Jason 12:49

Oh, okay. Grandkids are the greatest. We've got two that are five and one, and it's a what a joy. yeah, and they're local, so we can see him quite a bit. And it's huge blessing for sure. What about your faith, Matt? Like, what's your faith background? How'd you come to know the Lord? Maybe denominational background. Tell us a little bit about that.

Matt 13:07

Yeah, my parents are led to the Lord by Southern Baptist missionaries. We were in my dad was in the military station in Taiwan. And, um, yeah, Southern Baptist missionaries led the First, my mom and then him to the Lord. And so like any Southern Baptist that we were taught, you know, they were taught as soon as you get to a new, um, service station, the first thing you do is look for a Southern Baptist church. Usually first, you know, first Baptist church of wherever we lived. So as we moved around the world, we would, we would go there. My parents were really, you know, they were, you know, about, um, raising us up in a, in a Christian home. And so I was fortunate to that. And, um, but it wasn't until it, so I grew up Baptist. Uh, I would, I would have said Southern Baptist, but by the time I went to, uh, as a high school, we were living in, um, the Northwest, um, you know, the United States and there Southern Baptist. There's not a lot of Southern Baptists in the Pacific Northwest. And so we end up going to a church that's actually, as I was mentioning to you earlier, is associated with the General Association of Regular Baptists, which are behind both Cornerstone and Corbin University. So, um, they, this happened to be at the church in our neighborhood, in our area, um, parents liked this church. So we went there, um, and, uh, Yeah, I went off to university, which again, Corbin and wanted to go to Christian University and that's where I met my wife. Um, she, uh, she was also raised, she wasn't raised bachelors, but raised in a small village missions church, lives in a very rural area of Oregon, but really grounded in her faith. And, um, yeah, so yeah, we did that. We raised our girls, um, in a Baptistic churches. Um, and, uh. Yeah, I've really been fortunate. I was able to serve as an elder and, you know, Sunday school director and small group leader, men's ministry leader. So I've done, yeah, I've been involved in a number of areas with the church, led youth group for a number of years. Um, it's been interesting the last couple of years because of our moving, we're still getting acclimated. We've landed at a church, um, it's non denominational, um, here in town. But, uh, still trying to figure out what that, what it looks like to be engaged in church while doing full time ministry. And yeah, I travel a lot around the world. And so as I travel, how do I balance that and, um, Yeah. the demands of work.

Jason 15:27

Yeah. Yeah. Serving in ministry. And yeah, that's that I found we moved, we made one major move in our life and it wasn't a long ways away, but far enough where we find to find a new church. And that was the biggest challenge for us. That was out of everything. You know, our, we were pretty deeply grounded in the church. Our kids grew up in and we moved when they were our two oldest were teenagers. And that's a, that's huge. That's a

Matt 15:49

Yeah, I think a lot of people, I mean, I think for us, we underestimated that challenge. I mean, we were so, I mean, the church in Oregon was our church family at such a deep level. And yeah, when you, you know, when you leave it, you know, and you long for what that community was like, um, and you come into new communities where you're not known and people have grown up and, you know, you're coming in at a different stage of life. It is, it is more difficult. So, um, But yeah, it's been a, it's been a learning experience. I mean, because of that, my wife particularly has gravitated more towards newer people coming into the church and international people, because we've done a lot of work internationally over our, over the years that we've been either my job or just our own ministry, personal ministry. And so that's kind of been where we found, started to create that, you know, community. But, uh, yeah, it's very different than what we had in Oregon.

Jason 16:46

No, I think the same thing. We underestimated the impact it would have on ourselves and our kids, but the Lord grew us in a lot of ways through that. Hey, uh, a topic of leadership, Matt, when you think about leadership and your own emphasis. I guess your own, you know, core principles. What are, What are, those? what what are your, the core things that you go back to as a leader? Yeah.

Matt 17:11

for over 20 years in leadership roles, and I've I think probably the best way I've tried to get me just like I got a lot of things I kind of, you know, hooks and things that I grab as I'm leading, but I always come back to my definition of leadership that I use, which is to serve and shepherd a team so they can accomplish more than they think possible for a better future. And I think there's some key aspects of that. So one is serving and shepherding. Um, I like to talk about both of those partly because I'm wired pastorally. People have called that out in my life. Um, I will not be surprised at some point in my life in the future that I don't end up pastoring, um, full time or in some way in a church. Um, but yeah, I like that kind of shepherding aspect of caring for people and really helping. Nurture and encourage them. Call out the best in them. And then of course serving, I mean, doing that in a way that is about them. And then I like to talk a lot about team. Um, you know. My greatest success is really the success of the team. And when they do great things, I'd love to see it. Love to celebrate that. Love it to be about them. And really, I, I feel great when, you know, I'm in the background and I can point to the work that they've done and say, Hey, they've been phenomenal. I had a point to that. And I think it's really important to realize that team really helps you accomplish more. Like that's, I always tell my team, if, if it's, if you're not asking to do this thing more than you think possible, then why do they need you? Right? What, what, what people need. Whoever that is, someone to come and say, Hey, we can do what we don't think is possible right now. And then it has to be for a better future, right? Because you can lead in any different direction you want to, but if it's not pointing to a better future for us as followers of Jesus, right? I mean, that better future is both a life transformation in Christ, but also one that actually impacts the kingdom. So So yeah, for me, all I tried, I came up with this about eight or nine years ago. I was trying to think about like what, like when I think about leadership, what are the core things that kind of baked that together? And yeah, I go back to that a lot. I just asked myself, how am I doing on that? Where's that? Where's that going? And, um, and then as I talk with, you know, my team, like, okay, this is what we're trying to do. This is why I, how I'm trying to lead us. Then as you lead your team, you can come up with your own definition, but the goal is at some point you got to get it. The goal is to get that team to come together and to do something more than they thought possible, or they don't they don't need you. Look at somebody else. Yeah.

Jason 19:46

one of the things I've learned, I'm just curious on your thoughts on this, cause I've had to learn this, is. soliciting the input of the team in that kind of that vision development, right? And not just, Hey, I'm gonna come as a leader and I have this totally formed, developed vision. This is what, This is what I need you to help me to get to type of thing versus, you know, what does better look like for whatever the organization is. I work in for profit, you work in nonprofit, but as you said, you know, as leaders, we have to be moving forward. to improve. It's like in our personal walk with Christ, the sanctification that never stops. Have you, what Have you, learned through that? Or what what's your thoughts on, you know, how do you, how do you hone and develop that

Matt 20:29

Yeah, that's a great question, Jason, because I thought about that. I've given that a lot of thought, especially this new role. And I look back in my younger years and You know, being young, being thrust into leadership. I was leading people that I was. I was the youngest faculty member and I was asked to be the provost.

Jason 20:44

Yeah. Yeah. You're in charge.

Matt 20:46

I'm like, you know, so so there's a sense of insecurity and trying to Hey, I know what I'm doing. And, you know, looking back, I had ideas and had a vision for that look like, but I really felt like I had to do that, even though I knew all the right language. I had read the books. I was reading the books. It's hard to kind of really. Push your put yourself at a very, you know, humble yourself, lower your ego and really be about the team. So while that definition probably that I had just gave us, you know, leading a team so they can accomplish more than that possible, like I would say, I could maybe think that, but I really wasn't practicing that on a real heart level. So I could see when my heart would like, Oh, I really want to strive here. I want to people know that I'm doing this. I'm feeling insecure. Some of that comes with age. You just, I grew up and just started realizing, hey, you know, just getting older is, you know, some wisdom. Uh, but then really the Lord is doing a work in my life and just saying, you know, and really listening to where my heart really was and where as much as I could know my heart and recognizing that I fully know my heart. And just being sensitive to that and say, okay, you know what, I don't, I do sometimes want to strive out in front and how do I, how I lower that? So now in this role, I'm 50, 52, about to turn 53. And, um, I, there's this balance and you probably experienced it yourself. There are moments when I have to lead. And if I don't, there's a, there's a vacuum and I'm doing a disservice to the team and I'm doing disservice to my role. And this is what God's called me to. Conversely, there are times when, hey, I need to step back and let others lead. And the way I've kind of worked through that is just really trying to walk in step with the Lord, listening to what the Holy Spirit might be saying in that moment. Um, sometimes it's exhausting. So I'm really just trying to listen in that moment. So I talked about the team. I talked about this a lot. Here's another principle I talked about, which is the definition of humility or that what humility looks like is that is humility isn't being is being the right size for the situation at the right time, because sometimes you need to be bigger and sometimes you need to be smaller and humility coupled with wisdom allows you to know where that is. So if I'm too small for a situation where that calls me to be bigger, to use my talents, my gifts, then I'm not doing it well. Conversely, if I'm too big, when the situations should be, I should be much smaller. So I think that that's probably been the lesson that I've constantly asked myself, okay, Matt, how big do I need to be here? Sometimes it's listening to the team. Sometimes it's listening to the Lord. And say, okay, I've got to step up here or no, I

Jason 23:27

I like that a lot. I like that a lot. I hadn't heard that said that way, but I found that when, you know, there's good momentum on my team and they're working good together, moving towards that vision. I mean, I need to step out, step out of their way and watch. them like you said, and celebrate and watch. And it is so rewarding to just step back and watch it happen. Because we've all, yeah, we've, we've put the plan in place. Everybody knows their roles. They work together. And yeah, I like that a lot. Knowing, knowing when to be. Yeah.

Matt 24:00

I like what you said, Jason, about stepping back. I think what really, I can't remember when that moment was this late in my time at Corbin, when I really just really made the transition and saying, you know what? My greatest moment of success as a leader is when I see the team winning. Like, I just started looking for that more and more. It's like when that's happening and that for me, that was counterintuitive to my ego. Kind of like I wanted to be in the limelight and I just started looking. Okay, when, when, does that happen? And I just started getting excited about. So now I hunt for it. I'm, I'm constantly looking for that. And I've discovered, I mean, there's still my ego. I'll be honest. There's times I want to be recognized and, you know, Even in looking for other people's success, I can quickly turn that and corrupt that into, yeah, I'm looking for people's success so it could be about my success. But when I'm truly genuinely in that moment and just like, Hey, they are doing awesome. I've seen God's given talent just manifest themselves that they're doing something that they didn't think was possible. And I get excited about that.

Jason 25:05

Yeah.

Matt 25:05

that's that's when I'm in my sweet spot. And for me, then everything just, I, I can find myself just disappearing and like, that's awesome. So, Yeah,

Jason 25:16

didn't, they didn't, they don't need you right now. They got it. That's good. Yeah, no, that's, that's absolutely right. Hey, when Matt, when you were a young leader, what was something as you look back now and you really struggled with and maybe you've already touched on a little bit, but do you still struggle with it? Some, what have you done to overcome it? Like, what was something as a young leader really, you know, you battled, struggled

Matt 25:37

Yeah. I mean, definitely what was being thrust into the leadership the way it was there, there was a sense of insecurity and inferiority and trying to figure that out. Definitely coming to terms with that was a, um, a major issue. You know, my mentor, um, probably the thing, one of the things that she would say to me is that, um, like one of the things where guides wire me is that I can usually connect things quicker than most people in the room. It's just, I, this has always been the case. I can see the dots. Um, and because I could do that. I would quickly and then my ego is like I want people to know that I've connected the dots quicker than everybody else in the room. And really trying to not get like that became a major issue. So, and then that's dangerous, right? So just because you connect the dots doesn't mean you're connecting the right way.

Jason 26:26

Right.

Matt 26:27

And you you might not have a full perspective on that. And so I think that's probably been an area. I still battle with that at times that I could be in a room. I've had people say that they're just like Matt. It's amazing how quick you can process information. And I it's easy to say, Oh, I'm really good at that. But there is that dark side, which is you don't connect the right dots. You don't have the full perspective. And even if you do have those things down, man, my ego can quickly corrupt that in ways that aren't healthy. So really, so what she would counsel me to do is she said, you have to ask more questions. You've got to, you've got to slow down. And I would say I'm still a work in progress on that. Um, and really trying to say, okay, what's the right question to ask here first, rather than saying, okay, I can see this. Thanks. And. But what I find when I'm, when I'm at my best in that moment is when I can ask certain questions, step back, and when I try to practice this, I don't always do it well, and pray, say, God, what, what is it that you're seeing here? And do I need to say something? Or do I need to let that emerge from the team?

Jason 27:30

Yeah.

Matt 27:31

And then try to be in step with that. Um, like that's been. That's been a challenge and there's, there's under stress. I will definitely default to the darker side. But when I, when I'm in, when I'm in, in the word on a regular basis, I'm really listening to spirit. There's a sense of like, okay, yeah, that's, that's when I'm, God's using me at the best, at my best potential.

Jason 27:55

Yeah. I haven't, when you know, in your head, you have the answer, staying curious and asking questions and not just getting to that answer to that end game. That's yeah. I think that curiosity piece has been something I've had to learn is ask.

Matt 28:09

That's a better way of saying, you said it in a few words, but it took me too long to say.

Jason 28:13

Uh, I think that's, I, I relate to that to just be curious and ask questions and not make, yeah, just cause I have to jump to conclusions and they're wrong. Sometimes they're right, but uh, too often they're wrong and you don't let people kind of walk through the process, the thinking process, so one of the things I wanted to ask you about is your spiritual disciplines. Like what do you do on a daily, weekly basis, uh, to stay close to the Lord and grow, keep growing, sanctification, growing in holiness. and what does that look like on a practical level for you?

Matt 28:43

Um, yeah. Practical level. So for us, we're a Bible engagement ministry. So, you know, when I came here, I said, we have to practice what we profess. I mean, it would be really strange that we're talking about this and then we don't do it. And, you know, as a CEO, it starts with me about what does that really look like? And, you know, fortunately, I've come into ministry where that's already a natural part of my life. I'm always growing in that and is able to, you know, just continue that. Um, you know, You know, you know, regular, just sort of prayer. Um, one of the things that I, so I, I do those things. I don't always do it perfectly. I'm, I'm the CEO of our daily bread ministries. And there's days that I get too busy and run out the door. Like, I'll get to that later. And I don't, you know, I don't, and I always pay for it. I always pay for it. Um, so, um, or I might get by with it for one day. Like, okay, that way then it's like, you know, but it'll come back. Right. So, So I think really what I've been working on lately is really trying to slow myself down and still myself and like just even today I was just noticing before, you know, about an hour before this, um, my mind was racing and just got the phone call and it's realized that I really hadn't spent time praying as much as I should be. Thought I had been praying about the very thing that we were talking about. And so really just trying to pause in the middle of that moment, just say, okay, I'm going to, I need to step down. I need to be quiet for five minutes, try to still my mind, not let it race to the next thing. So that's one. And then the other side is, um, I, and I have a fortunate that I could do this, is that in a ministry like ours, um, I've been in a Christian ministry in leadership my entire life. I can, I can stop a meeting. And say, you know what? I think we're stuck right here. We're pausing. We're going to pray. And I've been, and sometimes I don't do that with the large group. I'll just do it for myself and I'll let them keep talking. I'm just like, I just, I need to pray. And really trying to practice. So when James says, if any of us wisdom, let him ask about, he'll give it to you like to, if I really believe that promise, then how do I actually live into that? So that kind of, you know, so yeah, I was speaking to our audience like, Hey, if you had that moment and you had your, especially if you're in a Christian setting where you can actually do this verbally, vocally, out loud, do it because man, it's been, our teams will always say that, you know, that when we do that, it, the Holy Spirit comes in and does things, you know, In ways that, yeah, it changes the conversation or it gives us clarity. Even if things are like, stop. Okay. We just have a sense like, Hey, we need to stop here. We're going to do something different. Um, so yeah, I think that's diligent, really listening day by day, practicing the presence of the Holy Spirit on a regular basis has been probably the key thing I'd be coming back to.

Jason 31:33

Um, another leadership topic. Who do you follow? Who do you read, podcast, listen to? What are some recommendations you would have for the audience to help you stay sharp as a leader?

Matt 31:45

Yeah. You know, if you were sitting here looking at my desk, I had a small bookshelf right next to me here of, of books that I come back to and, and behind me I got a leadership bookshelf. What's interesting, the books that are probably the most influential have actually been books that don't directly address leadership. Um, so. One of my favorites is, um, Visions of Vocation, uh, by Steve Garber, which really talks about the idea of how do you, like, what, what does vocation look like? And he says basically vocation is a calling of loving the world despite knowing it in all of its ugliness. So I, as I talk with leaders, you know, ODBM, I mean, our deliberate ministries, the longer I'm here, the more I know it. And I know how the sausage is made and I know the weaknesses. Can I love it? In spite of all that, and I think that's that's the way to avoid cynicism because I think it's leaders easy to become cynical. So that's the key book. Another one is called the J curve by Paul Miller. It's a great book just on just as a Pauline theology, very practical and what she just talks about the shape of the gospel is a J curve, both death, burial and resurrection. It's very simple idea, but. Miller just really kind of elaborates on it, really goes deep on that. And in fact, last week I was talking about leadership and we were talking about change management. I just used the J curve as a biblical principle, but I talked about that in change management. And then I talked about that from a biblical perspective, what was really going on in death, burial, and resurrection. So for me, it's been those books. Um, you know, another one has been Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And that's just been, you know, a great book. Transformative book that I come back to over and over and over again, especially chapter one so I could go on I would say the last one that I like I said, I got about 15 of them here that like I just looking at the shelf I go. Oh, yeah, that's the key point that I have here. But one that I would really encourage people to to really consider looking at is dangerous calling ball by Paul David Tripp who this is probably this is written for passers and Chapter four, I think if you're in leadership, particularly in Christian leadership, really going deep into chapter four and Paul Tripp really just gets into knowing the leader's heart. And he's just got a whole list of questions. And, um, it's good questions for me. They're good questions for my team. There's the questions that people should be asking me in leadership. It's easy to say, Oh, Matt's got together. He's the CEO of our ministries. I need those questions and yeah, Tripp just does a good job and he's really worked with a lot of pastors who's fallen and just seen ministries implode. He worked with the Mars Hill Driscoll's Church out in Seattle and I was connected and kind of watched that at the front row seat implode. And after that and another issue of the church I was dealing with, I read that book and I mean that book, chapter four. It's, I think it's essential for any Christian leader. Like you've, you've got to wrestle with that book and you got to wrestle with that with your team. Um, so yeah, that would be my, like I said, I got like 12 others that I'd love to talk about. So

Jason 35:00

No, that's great. One of the things you mentioned that I want to go back to that I think is, was, was, uh, pretty impactful in my life and I think I still see it impact people is this. As you, as people get an opportunity to take on leadership roles in ministry. So, and I think specifically local church ministry leadership, at least for me, and I've seen this happen with others, there's a rude awakening sometimes of some of the problems and sins and struggles that are happening in the church that. that the typical parishioner are completely unaware of and and and rightfully so. And when when I can remember, you know, it was what 20 probably 20 years ago when I first was asked to serve, you know, as a deacon. So you began to see some of the some of the broken relationships and the struggles within the church and it and it can Cause you to become cynical. it can, it will challenge your faith a little bit and that you thought, I thought all these people were just, you know, they come to church and they're dressed up real nice and everything looks great on Sunday. And then, you know, you start working behind the scenes and, and either among the leadership team, I've seen some awful, awful bitterness and I'm, I'm sure you've seen and been involved in some of those horror stories, but then also just. It's just getting pulled into some of the brokenness within the church to minister to those people. Um, and I, and I've seen, I mean that was, I want to say a little bit shocking to me at first, and I've seen, for other people it to be shocking, and I just want to talk about that for a minute, especially for those who maybe are going through that or are going to go through that, that it's, I don't want to say it's normal in a way that we should just accept it, but it's, it's, uh, it's, you know, there's still, there's still sin in people's hearts. There's still destructive things that happen even within the church. But, I mean, talk about, I guess, your experience with that and maybe what advice would you give someone? This is my, my point I want to make or the advice I want to give is for someone who is maybe moving into or will be moving into a church leadership role and get some of that same, they see how the sausage is made a little bit and see some of the things that um, that they're surprised to see.

Matt 37:18

yeah, no, that's, that's, that's a great question. It's insightful question. It's one that usually anybody. I've thought about this a lot because oftentimes when people come to a Christian ministry, they're like, Hey, I was working in the secular world. I want to come to a Christian ministry.

Jason 37:33

Yes. Yeah, it's going to be great. It's gonna be perfect.

Matt 37:36

you're going to run into problems. And I actually say you're probably going to run into more because on top of just the fact that we're humans, you've got the spiritual warfare. So that just going to be probably even a heightened sense of this. This is the reason why, um, Bonhoeffer's book, A Life Together, um, I, I wrestled with this, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a young guy. I'm leading a Christian university, people who know their Bible inside and out, and I'm watching people just do things that like, that just like, we wouldn't teach that in the classroom. And like, why are we behaving this way? So.

Jason 38:08

Yeah.

Matt 38:10

together. What Bonhoeffer says and is that the dream community is actually the thing that needs to die because the ideal can be because the real community. So the dream or the ideal community that you might have what this should be that needs to die because the real community. of believers and all their warts and ugliness is actually part of your sanctification process. So the more I just really sat, I mean, like, I mean, really, if this really sits underneath the weight of that, which also means my brokenness is actually part of other people's sanctification. So like, so there's that piece of really wrestling with that. And then there's this other side. Of also recognizing, well, what, what needs to change in me? It's easy for me to identify all the other things, but what really needs to change in me? And sometimes it's just long suffering in dealing with people's brokenness because you like to just say, Hey, what are you doing? So then there's that piece. So I always ask myself before I want to solve anything that I see is that God, what, what in me has to change? And that I find that that usually takes longer than. One minute or one day, like I have to really sit with that for a while. And then lastly, and I was just talking with a pastor right before this, and we were just, you know, we're unrelated to this, but he said something that I think is really true. It's like, and then there's a moment when you, you have to do what Jesus is calling you to do and to step into a difficult conversation. even if it's going to blow up. And I think, so I think it's those three pieces, the death of the dream community and living with the real community, recognizing how I contribute to that, but then also really listening to the Lord saying, okay, when do I need to say something and not measuring saying something if it goes well, right? I mean, you know, actually today's devotional, um, in our The men around him in Daniel chapter six could find nothing wrong with him. And they searched and searched. And so what did they do? So they manufactured a new law so they can catch him praying to his God. Like you could be doing everything right and still find yourself in a situation where you're going to be tested and tried because we live in a fallen world. And we sometimes as Christians go, well, you know, if I do the right thing, it should be, easy. It's like, no, it might actually get harder.

Jason 40:37

Look at like Jesus lived a perfect life that did not end well for him, right? They hated him. They hated him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt 40:45

So I think it's those three pieces. Dream committee has to die. You have to be able to say, Hey, what's wrong with myself? But then you have to ask yourself, Hey, I might have to say and do something that's really hard. And it might get worse. But am I going to be willing to do it? But I don't think you can. I think the problem is, is if you start with that third point,

Jason 41:05

Yeah.

Matt 41:05

you've got a problem. You've got to start with, Hey, what has to die? What has to change in me? And then you're at a place where God probably is able to use you to say, okay, now you could probably, you might be actually seeing enough of this clearly to be able to say something that's

Jason 41:19

Yeah. I love that. No, I actually was praying about that this morning in a relationship that I have that, you know, Lord, let me, yeah, let me have the wisdom to say what needs to be said. If it needs to be said, you direct me what to say, when to say, and even if that means it's going to, yeah, blow up if you will. But, but, but also help me to keep my mouth shut. And if, uh, It's, you know, someone I, something I have to look inward on. So that's, I'm going to get that book. I'm going to download that book to my Kindle. I've read Bonhoeffer before. I've not read that book, but everything I've read that he's written is really very, very, uh, insightful. Okay,

Matt 41:56

the shortest book he's written. I mean, it's, it's, it's quick, especially the, and again, I think the first chapter is the best chapter. I think the other stuff is not as, I don't find as helpful, but chapter one, life together, man, it's good.

Jason 42:09

Awesome. Hey, Matt, if you had somebody who reached out to you that, you know, young, let's say someone who's young in their career. And the first time they're going to get to be a leader. And they're like, Hey, Matt, if I buy you a cup of coffee, can we meet? And just give me some advice, generic advice on first time, first time leadership. I'm not, you know, I'm good to be a supervisor or manager of a team. What advice would you give to somebody in that situation?

Matt 42:32

Yeah, that's kind of hard, because each situation is different. But you're saying general. I think the thing that I come back to is what I look for in a young leader is I always look for how quick how teachable they are. Um, and so I think the questions I would ask, we, we would, we would How teachable are you? Really? I mean, are you? I mean, if you're gonna have to lead people like you're gonna start leading yourself first, and that leading yourself first is realizing you don't have all the answers. So how? How teachable are you? Because you're gonna make the mistake. You're gonna blow it in front of your team. And I've watched leaders, and I've been guilty of it doubling down because you can't lose face. But if you could really assess the teachability of your own heart and be teachable, because the real moment of leadership, I believe. Is when you blow it and you let everybody know that you blow it, you've blown it and you, you don't say, I'm sorry, you say, I need your forgiveness. Please forgive me because I have wronged you. I have done what I shouldn't have done. I'm not talking about a mistake. I mean, that's different. Those mean, but you just well you're, you're gonna, you're gonna send, you're going to fall short and you're gonna do, you're gonna do your team wrong. And I think that teachability allows you to just to say, hey, I need your forgiveness because I have wronged you. It's an awkward. I've had to do that a couple of times, even here. It's awkward. No one likes it. I don't like it. And then everybody wants to say, Oh, it's okay. It's okay. Because you're the leader. But I when I told I told you was not to stay and say no, it's not okay. I have wronged you. And I'm asking you to forgive me because I what I did. Doesn't line up with scripture and it hurt you.

Jason 44:11

Yeah.

Matt 44:11

I think that moment when you, I think for me, that's, that's the defining moment of, I watch for that in a leader. When they do some version of that, that's, I think that's what, at least in a Christian setting, that's when, that's when leadership starts going to a different level because you've been able to take yourself off that pedestal.

Jason 44:29

Yeah. That's huge. That level of humility And teachability. That's good. I appreciate it.

Matt 44:34

I don't always get that right. So I don't want to put myself on a

Jason 44:36

you.

Matt 44:36

there, but, uh,

Jason 44:37

I had to do that today. Uh, yeah, I had to go back and apologize for an overreaction I had in a meeting and then, you know, it's, yeah. So I know it's, it's tough. You know, you're wrong, but, Yeah, the Lord was working on me, and he was, of course, he's right. There's some conviction there, so to go back and make that apology. I like that though, to go and say, hey, I need your forgiveness. that's that's, that's a little deeper level. Um, two other questions for you before we wrap up. One is, do you have somebody, and you don't have to answer on the spot, uh, but if you know, that's great, you have somebody you'd like to see on the podcast, be a good fit? Yeah. Someone who's. You know, had a few decades of leadership under their belt like yourself and that you respect as a leader and profit or non profit. I, uh, yeah. Anybody you can think of?

Matt 45:26

Yeah, there's a, actually there is someone, um, he's been a mentor for a number of years. His name is Vance Day, Judge Vance Day. He's a, uh, retired judge. He lost his judgeship because, um, he would not marry, um, homosexual couples and paid a high price in Oregon for doing that. And I watched him walk through that. So I would love to introduce you to him. He, he's had a lot of leadership positions before, went through the fire, had leadership positions since then, and is a giant of the phase as far as I'm concerned as I watched him do that. So yeah, I'd be happy to connect you with him. He would be a great person to talk to.

Jason 46:07

That'd be great. And then, so thank you. And then, um, what, like, what do you hope people remember about you, Matt, when you're, uh, Workplace, full time workplace journey is done. What do you, what do you hope, you know, as they think about having interacted with you, work with you, work for you, what do you hope they'll remember?

Matt 46:25

Uh, yeah, I think going back to my definition, I'd hope that they remember that, hey, um, He helped me become better. Um, he made the ministry better. He made us better as a team and, um, that they would remember more about the stories about how the team really was functioning well and not necessarily about me. Um, I think if, because I think if you can, because then I would say, Hey, they don't need me anymore.

Jason 46:49

Yeah,

Matt 46:50

So I think every single leader, your real job is to, is to get to the point where. You're just not needed. Yeah.

Jason 46:58

That's good. I think back when I've had, the best teams that I was a part of, LADNR was a part of, and there's such rewarding times. You know, you wake up in the morning, ready to go to work. Even if you're facing some strong challenges, you're like, that's all right. I've got a great team of people and we're gonna get through this together. Versus, you know, all these constant infighting and battling and division. Uh, before we wrap up, how, if people want to follow you, get ahold of you, like, how do they do that with you and or the ministry? You mentioned there's more than just, uh, the, the devotionals that get left on the, you know, by the church bullets in every week. So, uh, how can people keep track of you, get ahold of you and, uh, our daily bread also?

Matt 47:38

Well, yeah. So I mean, definitely, you know, reach out matt. lucas at odb. org. It's an email. I don't do a lot of social media platforms, but I do use LinkedIn a lot and heavily. And so, yeah, that's probably the place. I, you know, I tend to, probably the easiest to find me, if you can't remember the email, just look Matt Lucas in our Daily Bread Ministries and I will show up and would love to connect and, um, I use that as my primary way to engage people inside and outside the ministry.

Jason 48:10

Yeah. And I'll link to that too in the show notes so people can go right to your LinkedIn page. As well and I'm guessing just our daily bread ministries You can start there and find out all the different resources that you guys are putting out, right?

Matt 48:22

Yeah, I'm glad to do that and uh, yeah, be wonderful.

Jason 48:25

Good Well good. Well, thank you brother. I know you're busy. I really again appreciate your time I can't wait to get this out there and have people learn about What the lord's done in and through you and a little more about our daily bread Like I said, it's a such a prolific ministry in churches, at least in protestant churches Um, I know I've known about for decades, so it's really neat to learn more about it and about you. So thank you.

Matt 48:48

Yeah, no, thank you.

Jason 48:49

Alright brother, take care. And thank you for joining us again this month. As we meet another leader who is striving to honor Christ in their work. I pray that we all are more effective at this objective in 2025. Lord willing, I will be back again next month to help you do just that.