Biblical Leadership @ Work
Biblical Leadership @ Work
Becky Pomerleau - Chief Audit Executive and Heart Transplant Recipient
In this podcast episode, Becky Pomerleau shares her incredible journey from a career-driven CPA to a heart transplant recipient, her renewed faith in God, and how her life's challenges have reshaped her approach to biblical leadership, work-life balance, and living as a daughter of God.
Becky's LinkedIn page
Becky's website
Five Dysfunctions of a Team book
Sacredness of Secular Work book
Sacred Work book
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Welcome to the biblical leadership at work podcast. I am your host, Jason watered. On this month's episode, we will meet Becky Pomerleau, lawyer, chief audit, executive CPA Christ follower. And heart transplant recipient. Listen in as Becky discusses her dramatic story, leading up to her need for a heart transplant.
Becky:I had what I call a soul moment where God literally Knocked me off of my feet. I would say that I was a Christian who lived my life with God, but maybe not necessarily for God. so when I needed something from God, that's what I did. predominantly what I would pray about, and so what happened is my husband and I, were in Colorado celebrating our five year wedding anniversary. and I had It's a series of heart attacks, not knowing that that's what was happening.
Yeti Nano:Listen in as Becky talks about how this event. Also changed her approach to work and her walk with God.
Becky:because my husband and I don't have children, work was life and our identity was really tied up in our work. and now post transplant, I really genuinely see my identity as a daughter of God and intentionally and proactively taking steps to live my life in that way and to align how I spend my time and my resources with those same values that I've always had as a Believer.
Yeti Nano:Becky offers a lot of wisdom on biblical leadership, but for her, the foundation is this.
Becky:my core motto and what I also teach people who are for the first time becoming people leaders is it's not about you. And that's the foundational element, all of the other leadership principles,
Yeti Nano:Becky also talks specifically about the importance of knowing each member of your team individually and leading them in accordance with their specific needs.
Becky:And you really do have to tailor your leadership to each person individually, which means you have to get to know your employees, not just as workers, but also as human beings.
Yeti Nano:So now let's meet Becky.
Jason:Okay. Becky Palmer low. Thank you for coming on the podcast today. I cannot wait to share your story with our listeners. So thank you sister for joining me.
Becky:It's great to be here. Thanks,
Jason:Yeah, so, um, like always, let's start with, uh, a little bit about your professional background, educational background, what God brought you through and, and where you're at, what you're doing today.
Becky:And so maybe I'll start. Quickly with just where I am today, so I've recently taken the role as Chief Audit Executive at Lesley's. Lesley's is a pool and spa care company, a retail company, so just started that about a month ago, but that audit work has been a theme throughout my career. It's been a pretty straightforward path of got my CPA and master's degree in accounting from the University of Missouri, grew up in Missouri. Uh, and then worked in public accounting with Deloitte. Then for a couple of different companies and progressive internal audit rules. Um, before then, uh, moving out to Silicon Valley and, uh, working for eBay and PayPal where I was in some first line risk management rules, uh, as well as. Uh, the last, uh, few years was helping to uplift their Sarbanes Oxley program as a part of internal audit. Um, but one thing I think has really been a theme throughout my career and what really gets me jazzed and going is, being an agent of change and helping to transform processes, transform organizations to really help move people from like point A to point B with point B being a better
Jason:Yeah, a lot of people development and process development. You and I are both process oriented people in a different function, but yeah, definitely appreciate the controls and continuous improvement and, Processes that, uh, that we do. So you, and you just moved, you and your husband, right? Just relocated. So going through all that right now.
Becky:We're still in the process of that as everyone knows moving is stressful and we're kind of doing it in multiple stages. So my husband is still back in San Jose and, uh, we're, I'm currently in Scottsdale, Arizona.
Jason:Okay. So, um, talk a little bit about your, your faith background. How did you come to know the Lord? What does that, uh, story look like?
Becky:And honestly, I don't really remember a time when I didn't know Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I grew up in a Christian household with just wonderful, amazing, loving parents. And one of those households where the only excuse for missing church was either the roads were too icy, Uh, or it was your summer vacation, um, not the entire summer, but I mean, like, you know, actually on vacation. And that was the only excuse to miss church. so I grew up in that environment. So when I went to college at the University of Missouri, I was also surrounded by Christians. Um, I ran track there and cross country as well, and so that great group of people, most of them were Christians, but one of them, and who continues to be one of my best friends today, was an atheist, and he challenged me to say, think through, Is your faith really your faith or just because that's what your parents instilled in you? And I'm really grateful for that because it did affirm for me that yes, my faith in Jesus, the Lord and Savior is my own faith. Um, and not just because it's what I was brought up believing. Um, and then, uh, fast forward several years after college and I had what I call a soul moment where God literally Knocked me off of my feet. I would say that I was a Christian who lived my life with God, but maybe not necessarily for God. Um, so when I needed something from God, you know, that's what I did. predominantly what I would pray about, right? Um, and so what happened is my husband and I, at this point I was now married, and my husband and I were in Colorado celebrating our five year wedding anniversary. It was around Thanksgiving time. My parents had driven out from Missouri to be with us as well, and I had It's a series of heart attacks, not knowing that that's what was happening. So it was just this kind of uncomfortable pressure in my chest, something that just felt very different than what I'm accustomed to. And then I did have tingling in my left arm as well. And when I first had the symptoms on Black Friday, I just took some aspirin, the symptoms went away within a few minutes and it was like, Oh, that was weird. Then Sunday morning, two days later, I woke up from sleep with those same symptoms, but instead of alerting my family or anything. I went into the bathroom. I shut the door. I sat down on the edge of the bathtub and thought, you know what? I want to see if my strong, healthy body is going to resolve these symptoms without needing to take aspirin because I don't need the aspirin. Then it's probably no big deal. I'm not sure how long I was actually in the bathroom, but it was long enough that my husband's like, Hey, why hasn't she come to bed yet? And so he kind of called out to me. And of course my first thought is like, I'm going to have to tell him that I'm having these symptoms and he's going to make a big deal out of it. Which is exactly what he did. Thank the Lord that he did. and so he kept saying, hey, if you're having chest pain, you need to go to the emergency room. We need to take you to the emergency room. And I'm like, well, it's not really painful. I wouldn't describe it that way. And I did take some more aspirin and the symptoms went away. And we sat down together as a family. For breakfast and do a little devotional at the end of breakfast. And that still small voice in my head, which I refer to as the Holy Spirit said, listen to your husband, go to the emergency room. so it went to the emergency room and found that there were some slight abnormalities in her heart. And the test that they ran. And so they sent us down to Denver cause we were up in the mountains at the time. They sent us down to Denver for further testing, which happened the next day. Um, and that's when kind of all hell broke loose and they found the condition that I had, but the condition also became severely worse. So I had what's called spontaneous coronary artery dissection, or SCAD, and your coronary arteries that supply the oxygen to your heart muscle started tearing from the inside out, um, and that's what caused the blockage and then caused the heart attacks. And every time they would try to put a stent in, where the artery had torn, then the artery would tear someplace else. And I was lifelighted, uh, to the University of Colorado Hospital on the other side of town, um, where we learned that I would need a heart transplant. I was, of course, unconscious, um, once they had taken me in to do the testing, um, and unconscious for a few days. So, um, it's always difficult. It's fascinating to me when you lose this period of time that you're, you don't experience, but yet your family is going through one of the hardest things that they've ever went through in their
Jason:Yeah. And you're not there. I mean, really. Right.
Becky:Yeah. I mean, you're physically there, but you're not present.
Jason:just to give people context, no family history of heart issues. You were in great shape. I mean, you guys were on a ski trip. You're, you know, young, absolutely no reason to think that you had massive heart issues.
Becky:Exactly. Yeah. Um, and the condition that I had typically afflicts women between the ages of 30 and 60 who have none of the typical risk factors for heart disease. so this has led me to be an advocate for women's heart health
Jason:Yeah.
Becky:the reason I describe this as a bit of a Saul moment is because
Jason:Yeah.
Becky:but I am not done with you yet. And I just had this confidence that, um, he, he wasn't done with me yet. And we were going to get through this. In fact, I had a dream one night in which I was arguing with Jesus, me saying, Hey, like, when are we getting this new heart? Like we can't, you know, wake up every day wondering is today going to be the day. And, and Jesus told me just be patient. It's going to be two months. And I kept arguing with him, like not only are the doctors telling us I can only be on this external machine for a definitive period of time, but also my family emotionally, I don't know if they can handle every day wondering, is today going to be the day? The next morning I told my family about this dream, like, listen, I don't know, was I really talking to Jesus? Was it just a dream, that I took that step out in faith and shared that story with them. And so they put out, you know, a plea on social media. for people to pray more fervently. And the very next day we got news of a new heart.
Jason:And so you were during that waiting period, obviously bedridden on a machine, not able to kind of talk us through what level of acute care that you had to be under. Um, I mean, you just in the hospital waiting, right? In an ICU, I'm guessing.
Becky:Yeah, exactly. And, and, uh, cardiothoracic ICU. And, uh, initially, and this was even before they brought me out of the coma, but initially there had to be two nurses in my room with me at all times, just in case. Something started to happen and they needed to immediately care for me. Um, I was first put on ECMO and then put on that biventricle assist device that was functioning as my heart. and they did, um, once they brought me out of the coma and they were the drug induced coma, uh, and they were able to evaluate that I had not had a stroke and that my other organs were functioning well, I was placed then on the waiting list for a transplant. And each day we try to make a little bit of progress to getting me stronger, to be able to just be prepared to go through a heart transplant.
Jason:Yeah.
Becky:And so first it was just sitting up in bed. For a period of time. Then it was standing next to the bed, Going over and sitting in a chair. And then it was starting to walk down the hall progressively further. Um, and I remember the first one might've been the first time, but maybe it was the second time they had me sitting in a chair and they bring this little thing that you can bicycle, you know, with your feet. And I remember thinking in my mind, I was like, so happy and elated that like, wow, look what I'm doing. And we have a video of this and you go back and you look at the video. And even though in my mind, I like, I still have this memory of it just I was feeling this sense of elation, of like, hope. This is like a hopeful thing that I was able to do. Like, you look at the video and I look so just like,
Jason:Pretty intense.
Becky:going on in my mind, right? It was very different. And so, um, in these times when we would, have me get up and, you know, Go and try to start walking down the hall. It took an entourage of nurses because it's so many machines and things connected to him. And my, my blood was literally going from my carotid artery out to this machine being oxygenated and warmed and coming back in through a different tube. And so if anything happened to that, or one of those things got pulled, like it would have been bad news. Bears, right?
Jason:yeah, yeah. Well, and I think I shared this when you and I talked on the phone. I have our 18 year old, our youngest son, had a kidney transplant and was almost went on an ECMO machine when he was about three days old. They put them in the room and didn't end up putting them on it, but nurse 24, seven dedicated, not two, but he had one. And then he had, uh, yeah, open heart surgery three years ago. So it's, uh, yeah, I know some of the, uh, Some of the challenges, especially on the family side, not going through it personally, but tremendous amount of stress and, yeah, it draws you nearer to the Lord. You have to because, right, you're out of
Becky:he liked it. I'm not giving you any choice in the matter.
Jason:Yeah. It's totally out.
Becky:I kind of read into it as a Saul moment is he, he forced it on me. And, and that's really what, um, transitioned me to not just a life with God where I'm praying to him for the things that I want him to take action on or to help me with, but to really a life that is for God where I'm actively, and I don't do it well every day, but where I'm actively seeking to pursue his will versus my
Jason:Yeah. So in the context of work, Becky, I mean, that's, so this podcast is really to other workplace leaders, um, and those who aren't in leadership that want to learn or aspire to leadership. God allowed that very challenging time and situation into your life and has, you know, changed you dramatically spiritually. Sounds like a lot of spiritual growth and maturity through that. What would you tell people before and after, uh, that has changed in your life and would encourage us who haven't been through that to pursue those changes anyways in our spiritual growth, our relationship with Christ. Like what, tell us before and after what has changed. I know a little bit about your pursuit of, um, faith in the workplace and some of the work you've done there, but I want, yeah, I'd love to hear more about that from you.
Becky:for me, my values didn't change from before and after, but what did change is really living out those values intentionally and proactively. and so before my life was very much focused on, because my husband and I don't have children, we hadn't planned to necessarily have children anyways, like. Work was life and our identity was really tied up in our work. and now post transplant, uh, I really genuinely see my identity as a daughter of God and intentionally and proactively taking steps to live my life in that way and to align how I spend my time and my resources with those same values that I've always had as a believer. and so. God led me to through some people that he put in my life who were from completely different aspects of my life. And, but around the same time, both asked me if I would be interested in helping to start faith based employee resource groups at PayPal. and I was like, what's an employee resource group was my first reaction.
Jason:So, so what, what is it? How would you describe that to the average Joe out here?
Becky:yeah. And a lot of people I think would be really surprised to learn that all the big tech companies for the most part have. Faith based employee resource groups. And an employee resource group is very much like what it sounds. It is a resource group for employees of a certain subset of the employees. And so most of the time they are around the protected classes. For equal opportunity employment. Um, and so a lot of times they will have started with maybe a women's employee resource group that really helps to lift up women in the workplace, or, uh, might be around race, uh, might be for veterans. so this is for people whose core identity is rooted in their faith and. One of the reasons why it is also necessary is because you have people who, because of their faith, may be discriminated against in some way, whether it's because they're wearing a hijab or the jewelry that they wear, or by their faith practices because they say, hey, at four Sundown on Friday, I start my Sabbath and I can't be on call. and making sure that companies are providing religious accommodations in the workplace as well. So that's kind of the foundational why you should have it, but the bigger, why you should have it. And from my perspective is because there's really intrinsic value in people of faith and what they bring to the workplace, meaning that. My Christian faith is what drives me to work with excellence. My Christian faith is what drives me to treat others with respect. My Christian faith was the source of my hope and resilience through my heart transplant journey, which continues today, but journey that's over. Um, and I wanted to enable others to bring that same source of hope and resilience and love into the workplace as well, because there's intrinsic value in that. And so, uh, again, I had a couple of people, different aspects of my life. I bring this to my attention. one of those is actually our senior vice president, general counsel at PayPal at the time. And so she had sponsored their Christian employee resource group at AmEx when she previously worked at AmEx and came to PayPal and surprised that we didn't already have this at PayPal. And so, uh, when you have your senior vice president, general counsel, who's saying, yes, we should do this and helping the champion, it breaks down. A lot of other barriers. And so, um, we ended up starting an interfaith employee resource group where people of all faiths are working together to uplift and support each other. At the same time, we also had chapters for the different faiths so that we weren't saying, Hey, all faiths are basically the same or promoting one faith over another. We were really intentional about being inclusive. And so I was an active member as well of our Christian. Uh, ERG as well, our chapter within the ERG
Jason:So I want to talk a little bit about your leadership philosophy. You've been in leadership roles for a long time with some really large companies and, and also the context of, you know, this whole event that happened with this harsh transplant and how maybe that you. changed as a leader or change some of your, um, methods in which you lead others. Um, I'd like to hear about that. So tell us a little bit about that. What's your core model? what's your leadership principle? How do you approach leading others in the workplace?
Becky:and my core motto and what I also teach young people or people who are for the first time and maybe becoming people leaders is it's not about you. And that's the foundational element, all of the other leadership principles, because if you get that down, it's much easier to kind of coach and learn some of the other principles. And so starting with that as a foundation, how you live that out then is. Seek first to understand. Don't go in assuming, uh, that I know all the answers, or if it's maybe a conflict type of situation, don't go in assuming, well, the other person's wrong and I'm right, or assume why this person is behaving in the way that they are. Make sure that you really understand first where they're coming from, so that active listening component, uh, is really important. and how you also live that out is, by, um, Say, I want to reflect God's love at work. And what does that look like? Like, what would Jesus do in this situation? Yes.
Jason:Yeah. Reminds me of the John Maxwell. I think at least he's the one I always coined that I feel like coined this term to seek. First to be understood, then to, you know, seek first to understand, then to be understood, you know, that whole piece of really, really understanding others, you know, where they're coming from and, and, and, and having that listening ear to just keep your, keep your opinion to yourself and, you know, understand where they're coming from and how they're feeling and what their context is, especially as a new leader, joining a new team, that's super important. I had somebody tell me a long time ago, and I've shared this, a lot on this podcast, but it was listen, learn, then lead once you join a new team. And you know, whether it's a new promotion for you or you're, you know, just taking leadership over from a new team. And I think that's a really, really good, really good model. Talk to me a little bit more about how as leaders, we demonstrate the love of Christ, not only in the, in the times that are a little more difficult, joyful, right? And promotion and development, but also in those performance management, difficult conversations. Like how do you, how do you do that in a way that honors the Lord? When you have to have those types of conversations up to and including sometimes, you know, we've had to let people go. Right. And that's never a, never a good thing, but how do we honor Christ through those?
Becky:Yeah. So it's a great question because there is conflict in the workplace. Or sources of friction in the workplace. And as a leader, it's really important that you address those up front and don't let them linger and fester. And I'm actually reading Peggy Bodie's book on safe work, and I think you recently recorded, I don't think it's published yet, but an episode with her that'll, will probably have aired already at the point that people are listening to this one, but I just read her chapter on addressing conflict, in the workplace and think one of my spiritual gifts is being a mediator. It's something that even from a young age, like on the playground of like, Oh, my friends are fighting and I want them to reconcile, to, uh, in the workplace as well. But I find that when I'm the one, like when I can serve in that mediator context, It comes very naturally, but maybe when I'm the one who has the conflict with another person, I do have that natural tendency to first say, well, maybe this is just going to resolve on its own.
Jason:Ignore
Becky:And so, I think it is really important coming at it from a biblical perspective. and I'm forgetting the verse reference at the moment. Um, but where, We're instructed to, Hey, if you do have a problem, if someone has sinned against you, or if you've sinned against another person, go and address it with one on one initially. If that doesn't resolve it, then maybe, you know, bring some other trusted leaders into the space. And I think that's such a great model for how to address conflict and make sure that you're not waiting to address it, but you're addressing it upfront. And then in the context of when, Maybe you are having to, cause I have been at position of having to lay people off. Um, and it's an inhumane act, but if you can make it as humane as possible with helping people, under, you can't always fully articulate the why, behind it, but help them know that they are going to be supported as much as the company can support them through that transition process.
Jason:No, that's good. And yes, um, Peggy's podcast should be live by now. It's scheduled for April 1st. So, Lord willing, that's when it'll go. I'm super excited about it because there's so much good leadership content there. So, thank you for sharing that. I know you and her are friends. when you were talking about that, it's really that church, church discipline model, uh, found, and I believe it's Matthew 18 and it's, I guess I would say fascinating, but it is, it is the model that Jesus gave us to deal with church discipline. If someone's sinned against you, as you said, go to them and go through and then bring somebody else in. But that model works in every relationship and work at home, um, And I absolutely, absolutely have used that at work. And in fact, when I've had team members come to me and are venting to me about a coworker,
Becky:Yeah.
Jason:know, now I'm, I'm all for help and solve that problem, but I'm going to tell them, go talk to that person. You, you two need to work that out. And then, and then if you can't, yeah, let's, let's bring a second party in eight, you know, meet your HR partner or somebody like that that can come alongside you. But that model is. Yeah, it's, you know, the creator of the universe gave it and he created us. So follow it.
Becky:Yeah.
Jason:Yeah, good. No, thank you for that. I want to talk a little bit about the spiritual side of things. Becky, can you share with us? What are your spiritual disciplines? What are the things that you do to grow in sanctification and Stay strong in your walk with the Lord?
Becky:Yeah, and so I do try to start my day with the daily refresh on the YouVersion Bible app. Over time and in different seasons of my life, that morning routine may look different, but that's my go to at the moment, which it starts with a verse of the day and then some reflection on that verse and then wraps up with a prayer time, and that prayer time includes some guided prayer that they provide, but also prayers that are in my personal prayer list that I keep within the app. And so it kind of cycles, it doesn't go through the full list, right? But it cycles through three or so each prayer session. And so I start with that. in addition, something that I do on occasion and I should do it more often because I tend to do it when, Oh, now I feel like I'm getting off the path of where God's leading. And then I do it. Um, if I did it more practically, I would, stray off the path less. But as an accountant, I do a T account, um, which if anyone's had to take a accounting 101 class, you've heard of T accounts. And on the left side, you have the debits. On the right side, you have the credits and the debits are the things to, that increase the balance and the credits are the things that decrease the balance. And so I go through this exercise saying, what does Jesus want for my life today? And. So one of the things he wants me to do more of on the left side and one of the things that he wants me to stop doing or do less of on the right side. And that is just a good framework for me to try to make sure I'm either staying, in accordance with God's will or, getting back to, uh, following
Jason:You do you write that down and those two the T account? Nice, I think that's a great exercise and for an accountant. That's brilliant. No, you'll T accounts I did I hated accounting. No offense. I loved I love financial Analysis, you give me a income statement balance sheet. I'm with you you get into all the T accounts and the ledgers and I'm so glad I am so glad that I have People like you that I can work with it Yeah, it's important, important
Becky:I'll play it. Similarly, that's why I've gravitated more towards auditing versus the accounting because I probably lean a little bit more in the direction that you do on that. Um, journaling is something that I'm trying to work on and be more consistent with because like you said, yes, I write it down when I do it. Um, but if I were journaling more consistently, I, I find when I do journal more consistently, there's just so much more revelation. That way. It's a passive activity almost for me when I'm not journaling. It's a more active activity when I'm journaling, even if I'm just writing down my prayer, versus it being a self reflective, but there's so much more self reflection that happens when you journal than when you don't journal. Um, so that's one that I'm personally working on. I don't know if you have any tips. Do you journal?
Jason:know what I have off and on, um, over the years I have journal to, I have a personal journal and a work journal that the personal journal goes back 22, 23 years. And there's been times I don't journal for a year or two. So, but to your point, yes. And then my work journal has been for me. very helpful, especially as I reflect back through very difficult times when I thought like all was lost. This is it. This is the worst time ever. And now I look back, you know, on that 10 years, 15 years ago and go, and it wasn't that bad. It's really helped me to, you know, reframe some of those super stressful times when you're just spun up in your head and you think it's just as bad as it can get. So yeah, highly recommend journaling. And in fact, Um, this isn't exactly journaling, but in my planner, I use a daily, it's a weekly, quarterly planner, and it's all handwritten. And I'm a, and I'm a big electronics person. 99 percent of what I do, I keep digital. Um, I'm a Kindle reader. I don't have a, I do have a bookshelf, but you know, the majority of the books I buy, I'm digital. But. There's something to be said about sitting down every morning before I start my workday and I'll actually recreate my calendar. I handwrite my meetings out. What are my priorities? If I have a one to one coming, what, what, what are the points I want to get it, you know, that I want to make in those one to one. So handwriting, that's a ton of value.
Becky:Yeah. Yeah.
Jason:Yeah, for sure. No, it makes a big difference. The other thing that, um, I haven't done this in a long time, but my pastor introduced me to these things called journalables and they are. a book of the Bible and it's a, it's a heartbound book, black, really nice, you know, one, um, ribbon in it. And it is a, it is a one book of the Bible, but then one page is scripture and the other page, um, is blank.
Becky:Okay.
Jason:Oh no, actually, you know what? Um, this tells you it's been a while since I did it. Actually you write out the scripture and then you journal it in the, I, in, um, the, where the scripture is written, it has the chapter and verse and then you write the chapter and verse out by hand and then you journal. And, uh, I've done part through one of those. Actually, I'm, I, I want to finish it even just because to give that, you know, to my kids or grandkids as a, um, kind of a heirloom, I guess. So yeah, yeah. So I definitely recommend,
Becky:Yeah.
Jason:doing that.
Becky:Yeah. Well, today is the day for you to restart
Jason:right. That's right. True. Um, when you were. Young as a leader and starting off Think back to like something that you struggled with and share with us what that might have been and have you overcome it? Have you not overcome it? How do you manage that? Like what you know, tell us tell us kind of what that looks like
Becky:It's interesting that when, a lot of times when you're younger, like school age, younger, if you are the best in the class at something or the best athlete on your team at something, they'll put you in a leadership position. So you have the, in the business world, we call that you have the technical competency, whether or not you have always the, the soft skills competencies to go along with it. I think something that reinforces is that it's. It's all about me and it's all on me. Um, because I'm one who has to hit that game winning shot, or if I don't hit that game winning shot, then it's my fault. As you get into the business world, as you become a leader, you have to recognize like, I can't do it on my own. We have to do this together as a team. In fact, we're much better if you are soliciting the ideas of everyone and vetting those ideas collectively as a group and avoiding group think and, or just following blindly following what the leader's doing. And so earlier in my career, as I started to become a people leader, Had to let go of a couple of things. One, that we have to do things Becky's way, you first become a leader, I think your initial thought is, yes, now I get to dictate what we're doing and what we're doing on the boss. And you can pretty quickly, if you're paying attention, you pretty quickly realize that's not necessarily the best approach, because your employees aren't feeling as valued, Then you're also again not getting the, the diversity of ideas and viewpoints that might actually help to bring different ways to solve a problem that you yourself haven't thought
Jason:Yeah,
Becky:The other thing was in letting go of the we have to do it my way is even if I see flaws in another way of doing something, it might be better for that employee to try it their way. Okay. Fail and learn from that failure. And so allowing your employees sometimes to fail, even when, you know, you could have stepped in and said, ah, stop, you know, let's redirect as long as it's not going to be really
Jason:yep, absolutely
Becky:right? I know I, Probably have learned much more from my failures in life than I have from my successes, uh, and to allowing people to have some small failures to learn from those failures versus always just coming in, um, like a helicopter
Jason:Yes, no, it's true
Becky:that forum.
Jason:I was actually, for some reason, I've been thinking about that very thing lately. And it's so true that as leaders to allow people to have that level of autonomy, even if you don't agree with the direction they're going to take, or maybe you're like, yeah, this is probably not going to end great. Again, knowing that you're not going to allow them to have a catastrophic failure or something that would harm the business. But it also shows them that you support them. And, you know, and you come alongside them and develop them through that and say, Hey, what, you know, what changes do you think you can make to try this again? I think, I think that's, I think that's, uh, that's
Becky:part of your question was, do I still struggle with some of that today? Of course, right? It's not natural human tendency. Um, to that selfishness,
Jason:Yep. Yep.
Becky:great in our sinful nature. And, um, and how I, I tried to again, go back to that initial motto to remind myself of it's not about me and helps to ground me and reset
Jason:How do you, Becky, how do you, let's say you're in a, you know, a team setting as the leader, you're the formal leader. And you're, you and your team are working to solve a problem or implement a change. How do you minimize your influence in your voice enough to ensure that you're getting input from the all around the table? I mean, there's some who are going to give it, but, and I'm sure you've, I'm sure you've had to struggle with this or think through this as a leader, especially with someone who's, I'm that way too. That's can, if given to your own devices, just come in and say, Guys, here's the problem. Here's the solution. Any questions? Let's go. But how do you, how have you taken practical steps to kind of minimize your own voice enough, not to eliminate it, but to not rule the room, I guess.
Becky:And I'm having to practice this right now to some extent because coming in, uh, as the new leader, and there are one of the reasons I'm there as a new leader is because there are opportunities for improvement. And I need to make sure I understand, well, how did we get here and what really are those root causes before we get to solutioning and the only way for me to understand how did we get here? And the root cause is by first seeking to understand and listening. And so I will get the team together and rather than me saying, okay, We're going to come out of this with a solution today, and here's what I think. Uh, I will set the agenda of, hey, we're here today to try to figure out the root cause of XYZ. And I really want to make sure I overemphasize, I really want to hear your guys input. I think a point you were making is, especially when you're in a hybrid, I'm going to be talking about how to make sure that everyone's voice is being included in a fully remote environment. Or a fully remote environment where you've got some people in the room, some people on a call, or maybe you're all virtual. How do you make sure that everyone's voice is being included? And so, if I'm finding that some people are contributing and some people are kind of standing out, Sitting in the background listening, they're not contributing as much. I will just point blank say, well, so and so, what do you, what do you think about that? What's your perspective? Um, because a lot of times that person who has been sitting there actively listening up to that point is just going to drop an insight bomb that we would not have gotten if we didn't pull it off that person.
Jason:Yes. I've taken the same thing. I actually am thinking of a specific individual who can tend to be pretty quiet on our team. And anytime that I've said, I want to know what you're thinking. There's something deep there. So
Becky:Yeah, I also, uh, think about, you know, how did Jesus operate? And so many times when he was asked a question, he would respond with a question rather than just immediately, he's God, he's all knowing he could have, he could have just brought some wisdom to the table, but he helped others think through it by first asking questions and then guiding them to, um, the end point.
Jason:Yeah. So I want to ask a question about the specific work that you do, Becky. So you're in accounting, but even, uh, I think I would call it a niche within that is, um, auditing. Um, when you look at your work and I think that I think that God made us to work and that all work minus something that's just overtly sinful, the few things you know that we can think of, but all work other than that has intrinsic value and it demonstrates some characteristic of God, eight characteristics of God. And so when you think about accounting and auditing and the things that that brings to the table, how do you, how do you look at that as this is something that we're, we're doing that is bringing blessing and it is a characteristic of God in what way?
Becky:The auditing at my level at this stage goes well beyond accounting. It's really across the company and auditing the risks of the company and how's the company managing those risks. And therefore just looking at kind of through that risk management lens, the intrinsic value is that I'm helping the company to better manage those risks either by identifying. Hey, we have a gap in a control like, Hey, we should have had a control over here to mitigate this risk or prevent this risk. And we don't. And so let's help put that in place or detecting when errors have been happening and why have they been happening? And how again, can we help prevent them? So that work in and of itself, that's the intrinsic value of any audit function. But from putting the spiritual lens and the faith lens on it is, God brought us. into this world to reconcile. I mean, that's why he brought Jesus into the world. And if we're following in Jesus footsteps, we are here to reconcile the world to him. And so to help to work towards a more perfect heaven on earth.
Jason:to bring excellence. As you mentioned it earlier, that word excellence. And I think that that's so important for all believers, whatever they're doing to work with excellence. No, I like that. Uh, you know, I think about auditing and controlling sometimes it's a, sometimes it can be looked at as a little dry and be, some people look at it as go, Oh, they're going to come and tell me what I'm doing wrong. Right. I mean, you know that it's, it's a, it's a stereotype. That's not good, but it's important that those are important functions.
Becky:I'm corporate and I'm here to help. Yeah.
Jason:Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, you know, my, my world's, um, manufacturing and sometimes the quality person is seen like that, but I have come to respect and love, uh, my quality teams and what they bring to the table to help us get better. You know, yeah, they're going to be the ones to come and kind of point out, this isn't what we're doing well, but let's embrace that and look for ways to get better, to be safer, to have less risk in the business, you know, to mitigate those things. So, yeah. Yeah.
Becky:to interact with all aspects of the business in my role. Therefore, I have the opportunity to influence them. And therefore I have the opportunity to show God's love to them. Um, and how I treat them, right? Not coming in necessarily and trying to saying, Hey, I'm going to get to know you a little bit. And then, Oh, by the way, have you read your Bible lately? Um, but just. reflecting God's love to them and how I treat them with respect, how I value them, how I partner with them to help make things better versus just coming in and a little bit to the conversation we were having earlier with like the leader and the employee. Like, I'm not just going to come in and say, gosh, I'll do it this way. I'm going to come in, really understand why are things operating the way they are? What problems do we have? What's the problem? And the root cause of those problems, let's work together and partner together and how we can solve those and make it better. And I think that's a way that God just instructs us to go about our daily lives. And I can bring that to the table and how I, I treat people at work.
Jason:Yeah, and I think in your role, as I think about my experience with people that do your type of work, for those that come alongside and say I have, I have a job to do and I'm gonna, you know, look at, look at your systems, I'm gonna sample your systems and we're gonna see if things are going well, but I'm really here to try to help and make improvements versus you get the feeling sometimes I'm here to try to uncover what you're doing wrong and throw you under the bus. And that is, you know, that's the approach that is taken sometimes. So I think that your approach in your work, especially your line of work can really set you apart as a, yeah, as a child of God.
Becky:Yeah. And in an audit role, you do have a certain amount of power because your recommendations or. Once there's agreement, there has to be some level of agreement on, yes, there is a problem here and we recommend how to resolve that problem. There's great power that can come with that. And with great power, Spider Man says, comes great responsibility.
Jason:Yeah, well, there's, you know, to your point, uh, there's letters that have been written by auditors that, uh, can end somebody's career and, you know, and, and, and, you know, probably there's times it was justified, but yeah, it's to, to think through that is, uh, important. Uh, Becky, another leadership topic for you. Who do you like, we already talked about one author you like, Peggy Bode, just released her new book that's super important, Sacred Work. Who else do you follow, podcasts, authors, like from, to just develop, uh, your own leadership skills?
Becky:I've got a couple modern day ones, but, uh, David and Psalm 23, if you've ever 23 from the perspective of, this is actually a. Leadership guide and we always tend to think about it as this is something that gets read at a funeral but I attended a faith and work movement annual leaders retreat a couple of years ago and The pastor there and his wife brought forward this to say hey look at this chapter differently, that actually God is laying out how we should operate as leaders. And I just felt like so mind blown by that because I've never actually read Psalm 23 from that perspective. And so I actually brought that back to our, Christian, group, uh, and did a session on it at PayPal. Um, and just. So enlightening to think of and to read Psalm 23 through that perspective. And the way that it talks about I rod and I staff comfort me. So both yes, when you're encouraging me, but also when you're disciplining me, right. And to think about when I am disciplining someone that I am doing it in a way. That they are going to come out of it feeling loved as one example of something that's in that
Jason:I love that. I, I've never thought of that.
Becky:go back and view that chapter through a different lens. Modern day. So Patrick
Jason:Hmm.
Becky:love all of his work. Uh, I've very much used the five dysfunctions of a team, uh, and team building activities with, uh, within my own teams, I think it's really important as leaders that even if we've created this open environment where people feel valued and they feel they have a voice and they feel comfortable speaking up and we can have healthy debate, if you don't occasionally, maybe it's quarterly, maybe it's a couple of times a year, set aside time as a team to say, Hey, we're doing a team building event. A lot of times things still don't come out that might be lurking. So I've used that fine dysfunctions of a team. There's a little bit of a survey that goes along with it where people get a chance to anonymously fill out the survey and then come together as a group and talk about, Hey, what are the areas that we need to work on and why? Um, so love that.
Jason:Is that your favorite book of his? I love him. I love that. All of his books that I've read are great.
Becky:Yeah, that's the one that I've practically used the most for sure. and then Jordan Rayner, I know he's been on your podcast as well. So just recently read his, uh, Sacredness of Secular Work, a book and have been communicating back and forth with him on, is there such thing as a heavenly calling? So what's our earthly calling? Having just recently gone through a career transition from PayPal to Lesley's found that book really helpful, uh, to me and navigating through discerning where is God leading next, because I too, at many times, and I've been at a fork in my career, a transition, thought, should I get out of the marketplace and do something that's more in traditional
Jason:Ministry. Yeah. Right.
Becky:Yeah, that's what God's calling me to do. And every time God has wide opened a door in the marketplace and closed doors in the ministry. And so I'm like, okay, literally God, you're making it pretty clear for me. I appreciate that. so sacredness of secular work. I really enjoy that. Um, I just brought up this nugget of like, is there such a thing as a heavenly calling? Because I've been thinking, you know, I don't think auditors should be needed in heaven.
Jason:in that book that I loved, because I can, you know, again, I love making stuff. I love going into a manufacturing plant. I don't care what they're making. I love to go in and just see how stuff's made. And I think maybe in heaven they could, they're doing that. But one of the things he talked about in the book is again, speculating that maybe there's something that you're passionate about that just it's not going to pay the bills, but you always kind of wished you could do it. You know, maybe it's you, you're a, you're a musician and if you could do that for a living, but you can't, so you do this other thing. So maybe Becky, for you, there's something that's, you know, that, that heart desire that, well, I wouldn't pay the bills, but that's a, yeah, your heavenly calling.
Becky:yeah, trying to dream big about Oh, what can my heavenly calling be some things I thought about even again, these are just things I probably would not actually end up doing it being a game show hostess or a taste tester on a baking show, like a judge on a baking show.
Jason:There you go. See? Yeah.
Becky:things like that. Um, but Jordan also reminded me that, um, you The leadership skills that I'm using in my day to day work and continuing to develop on and talking about here, like those likely will also be needed, um, on the, in the new earth, um, because to the point you just made or more speculating, but. Things are still going to be built. They're still going to be created. And so those leadership skills are still going to be
Jason:absolutely. So on that topic, what tips would you give to someone who's just moving into a leadership role? And I think some of what you already said, you would, you would give advice, but let's say someone invited you to have coffee or maybe someone on your team that's getting the first promotion to be a supervisor of a small team. What, what's uh, what advice, maybe something you haven't already shared that you would give to them. Yeah.
Becky:Yeah, um, so I would start with the things that we've already talked about. Hey, it's not about you and seeking first to understand. And so I start with those as the foundation. But then also, you know, help them understand what their core competencies are and what they're not. I think self awareness is really important. Because if there's an area that maybe isn't, uh, they're not as strong at, but they can identify that someone in their team is really strong at that, then make sure that they're, uh, enabling, uh, that employee to bring that forward. And you really do have to tailor your, tailor your leadership to each person individually, which means you have to get to know your employees, not just as workers, but also as human beings. So, you know, really getting to know your employees as human beings and treating them as human beings versus just workers, very
Jason:Thank you. Amen.
Becky:and something that you're not going to be as successful, you might be successful, but you're not going to be as successful as you could be as a leader, if you're not
Jason:Have you bet Becky on that topic? And I couldn't agree that I have a hearty. Amen for that. When I, when I really began to develop as a leader, I went to work at an organization who was passionate about people in development and it was the first time I ever took a personality test. Uh, and there's a bunch out there, but like disc. and Myers Briggs. And so is there any that you would recommend that you've used, uh, with you, yourself and teams that have helped, helped in that type of, you know, opening your eyes to, to those strengths and weaknesses even.
Becky:Yeah, I've used StrengthsFinder, uh, as well as the Disk Assessment, uh, both of those, so I think those, uh, are both helpful, and then not just having the team take the assessment, but of course, then bring that, uh, the results to together and discuss it as a team and make sure that there's transparency, like transparency is another thing that is so important, and whether it's, you know, An exercise like that or just in general, transparency is really important. And of course there can be times as a leader, there are certain things that are not supposed to share, um, until something progresses a little bit further down the road. Um, but that also, that transparency helps employees feel very valued as well.
Jason:my team I'm going to be as transparent as I can be with them and that, you know, and again, in my, in my, background working with large teams across multiple shifts, white collar, blue collar. And I've found oftentimes the guys on the shop floor are being kept in the dark and things that they don't have to be, you know, and I'm like, why do we keep them in the dark? Let's tell them what we know what we can. You know, there's certain things you cannot share at certain times, but I think you're right. It builds trust when you when you're transparent. It just it builds that trust.
Becky:Yeah. Which goes back to that five dysfunctions of a team and that foundation is
Jason:Yes, yes. Let me go back to what you said about, uh, StrengthsFinder. Absolutely. If somebody looks up StrengthsFinder 2. 0, I think it's a very inexpensive little book, and it comes with the survey in it that you can go take. So, I absolutely recommend if you are, if you are a leader and have never taken one of those, you really should to help you understand yourself better. I had a team one time, a team of managers, and we all took the StrengthsFinder, and then we blended it, Like we said, if we were one person, were we really strong and were we and we had some areas that were kind of blind spots, you know, because it was like, man, there's nobody on the team is, I don't remember what it was, but let's say, but there's no one here with any kind of empathy. We got to be kind of careful about how we might approach certain situations where, you know, as a, as a group, we're not very empathetic. So yeah, that's, that's good. That's really, uh, that's really wise advice. When your time as a workplace leader is done, you've got, I think, a lot of work in front of you. You're, you're pretty young in your career. I think still mid career probably. But when you're done, what do you hope people will remember about having worked with you? Having worked for you? What do you hope your legacy will be? That's
Becky:I have the benefit of having just Left one company for another company. And, um, what I hope people would say and what I have heard from people is that I was a joy to work with, which as we've already talked about, auditors may not always be in that light, right? Um, why, why that's important to me and why I want people to say she was a joy to work with is because then I know that I have reflected God's love to them. And that they saw that I lived my life with a sense of hope and a sense of purpose. And that's what's translating into joy because that's what Christians should model. That's what a Christian should be. And that's how people encounter Christ is through seeing how Christians carry themselves, how they conduct themselves.
Jason:what's your, what's your current, as much as you want to share your current kind of situation with you've had a heart transplant, like what's that future hold for you from a health? And again, I have a son who's had a transplant. So I know some of the things, but, and, and as much as you would like to share, and then how might people pray for you in that situation? Anything upcoming that we can, you know, keep in front of the Lord? Yeah.
Becky:you asking that question. And I'm very open to talking about my medical situation. I'm blessed that, uh, not, having any issues at this time. Um, I'm nine years post transplant. Um, the future continues to look very bright. That said, the average transplant lasts 10 to 12 years. The average heart transplant, each organ is a little bit different. now a lot of reasons why I should exceed those averages because I was younger when I had my Relatively younger. When I had my transplant at the age of 34, I don't have any other underlying health conditions at the same time. And so I do know people who are 30 plus years. That's certainly the outlier cases, but they're 30 years on a heart. I also know people who've had more than one heart transplant. And so that's what I anticipate will be in my future is that I will go through another heart transplant at some point in my lifetime. So I do hope to retire early as well. So I get, because I think my life expectancy is probably shorter than the average. but the first time I went through the transplant, I had the benefit of ignorance is bliss. I knew nothing about what it was going to be like, how it was going to feel all the poking and the prodding. And the fact that once you get the transplant, then they have to test for rejection, which. literally involves them invasively, taking samples of the heart muscle, to check whether there's any evidence of rejection in the tissue. Um, once you get, about a year out from transplant, they can simply do it through a blood test, but they, it's like, I just got this new heart and you're literally taking,
Jason:Biopsies.
Becky:stopping your biopsy of my heart. You're taking pieces of this new heart that you just gave me. And so the first time through, I didn't know any better. There were things that the doctors would say, Oh, this isn't going to hurt. And that was clearly, uh,
Jason:Yeah. You not.
Becky:not fully accurate, but it kept the anxiety level low. Right. Um, so I do have, Trepidation about going through a second one because now I know, um, that so, you know, I would appreciate prayers for that. But I also have that confidence that God got us through the first time through. And I don't know, will I get a second one? Won't I? Like, I don't know what that's going to look like. Um, but I know that in whatever the situation that God is going to Take care of us and that he's here with us. And that doesn't mean it's going to be easy. That doesn't mean it's not, it's going to be painless. Like it's going to be hard. I used to think that I didn't fear death because death would result in eternity and heaven where there is no more pain. There is no more sorrow. And now I know actually the process towards death can be very painful. like I said, God really gave me that sense of peace in that most difficult time, and that's something that I just has carried forward with me since then. And through every difficult situation that I've come across in my life. And, God really led me through, um, some other Christians in my life. Um, a kingdom coach, um, that I met with a couple of years post transplant to get to that place of fully surrendering my will to God's will. I do it perfect every day. No, but the way to that life of peace and freedom is through surrendering to God's will. And when I find myself not feeling that sense of peace, not feeling that sense of freedom, regardless of the circumstances, it's because I'm not on that path, following God's will.
Jason:Yeah. You're taking it back. Taking that back. All right.
Becky:Yeah. I'm trying to take back
Jason:Yup. Exactly. Well, I appreciate you sharing that, um, sister, and I would ask that, yeah, people, you know, as you come to mind, pray about that and your future, and we'll pray that you have that you're an outlier on many, many decades of that heart transplant. And again, I can empathize with that. My son's 14 years and, um, we're probably, you know, it's starting to show now kidney transplants, much different, uh, living donor, you know, is available, would be available. So it's, it's very different, less risk, but. Still can understand that and the monthly blood checks and all that. You got to go get, go get the draw every month and see how things are going. So uh, anybody you'd like to see come on the podcast, anybody that you could refer to come and visit with us here.
Becky:I got two names for you. One is Craig Carter. He, uh, used to work with Intel and was the leader of the Christian ERG and the cross faith ERG there. I am currently, uh, working with him, um, on starting a new nonprofit called Courageous Third, and the reason it's Courageous Third, third being God first. Others second, and then ourselves third. So that's the third and the courage thing that it takes a lot of courage in the context of work, to reflect God's love at work. And that's really the mission of the organization is to connect, And equip Christians in the workplace to reflect God's love at work. And so, that's something that God has put that calling on Craig, uh, to lead that effort and so I'm supporting as a board member, um, but I would love to, to hear him on your podcast. The other person, um, is my sister in law, so she is an author. Her name is Justine Fulker. Um, she's an author. She's a coach, does a lot of corporate training. Um, so she does a lot of like the Brene Brown training, but she's really, a courage leader as well. So kind of interesting that the word courage is coming up in both of those contexts, um, but yeah, I'd love to, to hear more about that. I hear her here as
Jason:That'd be great if you, uh, feel if they would like to connect, uh, you have my contact info. I'd love to talk to him. And you know that I feel like there's so much momentum right now in the movement. I call it a movement, the faith and work movement. I just saw. And again, this is, we're recording this, um, in March of this year. So by the time people here, it'll be summertime, I think, but yeah. There's a conference that's coming. There's books. I've read three books in the last four months that are all faith and work related. And so it's so exciting. It's exciting. It's, it's an, it's really exciting time. So, last thing is just how can people best and we'll link the stuff in the show notes, but like, what are some of the best ways for people to network with you, Becky, if they'd like to do so?
Becky:Yeah, LinkedIn is a great place to connect with me. Um, I've also recently launched a website that I'm probably still tinkering with a little bit, but Rebecca Pomerleau dot com. And the reason that I've launched that website is because I am writing a book about my heart transplant journey and how that led me to a life of peace and freedom when wanting to help equip others to do the same. Um, so check me, check out my website, connect with me on LinkedIn.
Jason:Great. And I saw two of today on linked on your LinkedIn page. Um, there's a link to a YouTube video you did, I'm going to say five years ago, four or five, six years ago. Um, a really good talk that you gave, I think maybe at a faith and work conference talking about that. So, yeah.
Becky:it might be the one that was at the Silicon Valley prayer breakfast where I was sharing my heart story. Um, I also spoke at passion talks, um, and in Silicon Valley as well. So probably one of those
Jason:Good. So good landing page will be your LinkedIn page and your website. We will put those on there and we will lift you up in prayer about your health and also your book. Very exciting. Thank you for the work that you're doing to share your story. And really, ultimately, I know you want to glorify the Lord and talk about what he's done in and through you. So, um, thank you for, for that and for coming on today. I really appreciate it.
Becky:Yeah. Thank you for having me. And there, there was one kind of last nugget that I wanted to share with folks as well. You know, if you find yourself in a place, um, where these principles, these biblical leadership principles that we've been talking about are counter cultural, maybe it's counter to the culture of your company as a whole. Maybe it's counter to just the culture of your team or a leader that you work with. Keep the faith and stay the course. Um, because you know, Paul instructs us, uh, that to run in such a way as to get the prize and that prize is not. necessarily the promotion or more responsibility or the raise or things of that nature, but the prize is honoring God. And ultimately, um, our reward is in heaven and not of this earth. And so do not grow weary in
Jason:Amen. Amen. And you know, if it's the, if that is the case, then I would say that person's been called into a dark culture or dark place to be a light and salt. And, uh, yeah, that's great advice. Great encouragement. Thank you for that. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you, Becky, for being on. Appreciate that. And, uh, yeah. And your time. Thank you.
Yeti Nano:And thank you for joining me again this month to meet another leader, striving to Excel in their work and on our Christ in the process. Lord willing, we will be back again next month. Learning from another Christian leader.
