Biblical Leadership @ Work
Biblical Leadership @ Work
Peggy Bodde - Author of Sacred Word
Peggy Bodde is an author, blogger, leadership coach, and seasoned Executive. Her passion is helping other woman to lead in the marketplace. Listen in as we discuss her brand new book, Sacred Work, and discuss ton of practical leadership topics.
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Welcome to the biblical leadership at work podcast. I am your host, Jason Woodard on this month's episode. Peggy Bodde rejoins me to discuss her new book titled sacred work. A Christian woman's guide to leadership in the marketplace. Now, before any of you men too. Now, let me tell you that this book and today's episode is full of wisdom regarding leadership for both men. And women. So stay tuned. For example, we discussed the importance of addressing conflict within the workplace.
Peggy:I think leaders, we have to take off the the blinders and accept that what we see as a conflict may be just between two people, is never just between two people. There are always camps forming one, you know, one side or the other. and if we're not doing something, employees are talking about the fact that we're not doing something. What's wrong with them? Why don't they address this? Why don't they deal with this?
Jason:We also talk about change management.
Peggy:there seems to be kind of this fear, this need for control that leaders can have that make them wanna hold that information close. But I've never seen that work out well for the organization. The change itself or the leaders. I mean, it's better to bring in, the people who are impacted by the change as early as
Jason:Yeah. Yeah.
Peggy:that's the best guarantee for success.
Jason:And we discuss practical steps and addressing performance problems with one of your team members.
Peggy:we need to handle it one issue at a time, and we need to be timely. And even though that may not be comfortable or convenient for us, that is what is going to affect positive change in the employee. And that should be our goal. You know, we want our employee to be the best they can be. It's not that we wanna sit down with a list that looks like, a record of how we're going to get rid of them. You know, that's, that's not the point.
Jason:So, although the book is written as a mentoring guide from an experienced female executive leader towards other female leaders, whether you are a man or a woman leading in the workplace, you will gain a lot of insight from the show. I know that I did. Okay.
Track 1:Well Peggy Bodde is so good
Jason:to have you back on, uh, the podcast and we're super excited to talk about your new book that's coming out April 1st. So that's what we're here to discuss today. Welcome sister.
Peggy:Thank you, Jason. It's great to be back with you again. So excited to be here.
Jason:So today we're just gonna talk about the book and I want people to, you know, get a flavor for it and encourage them to go buy it. Especially the book is called A Christian Women's Guide to Leadership in the Marketplace, and that'll be available on Amazon. And we'll, we'll link to that and then of course, your website and other places they can get it. But let's start off talking a little bit about your, Motivation to write the book and then your career background too, that gave you the experience, uh, to be able to share with other women.
Peggy:Sure. So I worked in the corporate world for 25 years until God called me out of that. So I pivoted from executive leadership to starting a freelance writing business. And so today I work mostly in the educational publishing world, which means I write textbooks and I mentioned that because it just, I. There's this theme in my life where God just takes every experience and repurposes it for the next experience. So, working in the educational publishing world, that writing experience and that exposure to publishing helped me get into the Christian publishing world and, and get this book published. So, um, that's really amazing to me that, that God reuses our experiences. But at the same time, I left corporate, I also founded a ministry called Sacred Work where I offer free leadership and career coaching to women. So I've been mentoring or or coaching women in the corporate world or outside the corporate world for 35 years now. So I felt. Really compelled to write the book because I wanted women to have the mentor that I always wished for when I was in corporate. So sometimes it's not easy or accessible to find a Christian women mentor. And so, um, the book is a, a pocket-sized mentor so that women have access to, um, leadership tips and, and guidance. That's all Faith-based.
Jason:Yeah, and I'll, I want to say too, I've read the book, uh, and I, I will share something here that I shared with you, and I mean it, I'm a, um, I'm a huge John Maxwell fan. I've read many of his leadership books, and one of the things I love about John Maxwell is that he's super practical in his approach to writing about leadership because sometimes when, sometimes, you know, leadership authors can get pretty academic, And, and I suppose that's important in some aspects to study it at that level. But anyways, John Maxwell, I think was always very readable and you could take what you read and go apply it. And when I read your book, it reminded me a lot of his writing style. I think it's super, super practical and you give really clear tips and directions, and you give a lot of anecdotal, um, stories about why, you know, you, you would guide people in that direction. And then I love the fact that in every chapter, You tie it into what scripture says about that topic and even have, uh, prayers throughout it, so. Yeah, just a, a great resource I think for women leaders in the marketplace, or those women who, you know, aspire to be in leadership roles. I think it's, uh, it's good and, and it's good practical advice for men too, leaders. So I will say that as a guy who read it, it was, uh, a lot, a lot of good advice. it was a lot of good advice for, for me to be reminded of. So, yeah. Great job on that. I just think it was really, really practical. It was good.
Peggy:Thank you. That that was important to me because, um, I think we often view God as holy. But not practical. And when we read scripture, we see from the time he first created, um, everything, you know, the steps that he took, um, everything was designed to take care of us. It was a very practical approach. Um, so I, and, and I think too, um, the reason I brought scripture into every chapter is that. Sometimes women compartmentalize, or even just Christians, you know, we compartmentalize and we don't think the Bible has anything to say about the workplace. Um, and, and so I wanted to make it clear that, you know, the Bible is still relevant and there are everything from working in a male dominated industry to handling conflict. All of all of that, the Bible gives us guidance on. So I wanted to, Just provide that resource for women who, who wanna know, well, what does God have to say about this? You know, I'm, I'm praying, but what does this word have to say about it? So thank you for those kind words and for reading the book,
Jason:I think leaders always need, you know, leaders should be readers. And it's a little bit of a cliche, but it's true. And, and as I read through your book, um, it was a good reminder on a lot of things, and I think it was really insightful. So I do wanna talk about, uh, some specific things we'll give, we will give our listeners some, uh, some nuggets of the book. And then, uh, there's lots more that we're not gonna cover today, but, One of the very first things that you talk about, the very first chapter is imposter syndrome. And that is something I think bo, well, I know both men and women face'cause I've, I've been through that myself. But you talk a little bit about how you encourage women to work through imposter syndrome and not cross the line into, you know, overconfidence or even arrogance? I mean, that's not biblical, but, but, but you, um, help them to find that balance and not be debilitated by imposter syndrome. Talk a little bit about that.
Peggy:I would love to that, um, the imposter syndrome, I, I suffer from it. So I wrote from, I. Um, the approach of, I, you know, I get what you're going through and in case anyone who's listening isn't familiar, basically imposter syndrome happens when no matter how qualified or competent or experience someone is, they still feel like they don't measure up. They're not good enough or, you know, I'm a, I'm a fraud. Everyone's gonna find out or I got a promotion, but I didn't deserve it. Um, so this can hold us back in what God has designed for us to do. So what I tell women, and, and this again, is a very practical approach, is, you know, obviously we need to know what God has to say about us. So we, we lock our identity into him for sure. But there are also Other practical steps that we can take. And one of those is whenever a woman begins to doubt her abilities and her achievements, I tell her, you know, go to your a file, whether it's a digital file or paper file, go to a file where you keep all of your achievements. It could be the degree that you received, it could be an email from a coworker complimenting you. It could be a promotion letter. You know, go back and read Read through, hold in your hands, you know, the tangible accomplishments you've had because that is a powerful, uh, weapon in addition to God's word, against the enemy, you know, trying to, to whisper doubts. I think another thing is talking about it with other women, because if you feel isolated, you're, and you don't talk about Something, you can't overcome it. So the first step is, is to have conversations around it. And I think when we do that, we find out that lots of women and men, as you mentioned, um, struggle with imposter syndrome. And it, it's really empowering to know you're not alone. Um, something else I, I've done is. Is keep a journal. And I tell women, you know, if you write down what, what triggered you, what caused you to react that way and doubt your abilities when you can journal things, you can look back and see patterns That kind of pull you into that mindset and then that helps you see it in black and white, and then you can work your way out of that. Or you can use what you've written, you know, to talk to a mentor or a counselor. So those are some tips that I, that I give women. And, and the whole time that I've, um, I've always had a passion for mentoring women. Like I said, it's been a lot of decades and this is a problem that is not going away. You know, it was here. 20, 30 years ago, and it's here now, so I. think today it's even worse.
Jason:I have to share something here with you. I think it's right here. You talked about that file. This is mine. This is mine in here.
Peggy:Oh, I love it.
Jason:Yes. So I, I have, I have notes of encouragement from team members. I have some reports that showed improvements and go back over a decade, uh, that I've done and, and the journaling. I can't over recommend that. I guess enough. I'm looking at, on my bookshelf right here, I have a journal, it's a work journal that I've kept, man, I think 13 or 14 years. And there's times I've been able to look back and I look back and read when I thought things were absolutely falling apart and I was at my worst. And I look back and I go, we got through that. We got through that. Okay. So it's, it's, uh, that's really good advice. That is good advice. Yeah. Good. No, I was just talking to somebody on a podcast the other day, um, who's a lawyer and a partner. Um, he was, uh, we just released a podcast on March 1st, so if anybody wants to listen to it, uh, Jesu and he talked about imposter syndrome and, you know, when he's, uh, been on non-profit boards. And here's someone you would look at who's, you know, in a pretty high level leadership role, uh, at a law firm as a partner and Yeah, he's, he's struggled with imposter syndrome and it's, uh, it can, it can really be detrimental. And he, one of the things he said that I really liked was, you know, he's had to get to the point where he just reminds himself that he's where God has put him. And so the results aren't necessarily up to us. I mean, yes, we need to put in the effort. We need to do our best, but we serve a sovereign God who has. Put us where we are and we are to serve him faithfully and the results are in his hands. So rest in his sovereignty, you know, rest in that he's equipped us to do and be who we are, where we are. And yes, we, we do put that effort in, but, um, God's in control. He's, you know, he's gonna use us in our brokenness to, uh, to glorify himself if we're faithful. So I think that was wise from him.
Peggy:That is really wise. And, and I think too, if, if someone has a favorite scripture, kind of, um, going along with what you just said, a favorite scripture or, um. You know, an affirmation that comes from God's word. Uh, that's another tip is, is write that down similar to what Jesu said, and put it under your keyboard or somewhere where you can pull it out and read it.'cause I think we have to recognize that the enemy doesn't want us to embrace who God says we are. Or who God says he is. So we have to come against that in a spiritual way and, and scripture and tying, you know, anchoring back to God is, is definitely a powerful way to, to do that.
Jason:Another question I have for you, Peggy, what advice would you give to somebody who's listening Maybe a, a. A female who's in an individual contributor role that has aspirations to eventually move into a leadership role. Your book, your book is really well aimed at someone who's already in that role, but what, what advice would you give to someone who's not there yet and how they should prepare in their career and, you know, get ready to move into a role and have opportunities really to create opportunities to, uh, to be promoted into a leadership role?
Peggy:That's a great question. Um, I think one of the most important things an aspiring leader can do is to get a mentor. And that can be formal. I know that depending on the size of the company, some companies have formal mentorship programs where they match people together. Um, so it can be in a formal sense, but it can also be informal. I mean, if, if you take a step back and look at the women in your life who are leaders, whether it's at church or in work. Wherever, you know, if they have leadership experience, if you look at your circle, there's usually someone in that circle, and the hardest part is always asking. But, um, I can tell you from experience that women love to help other women. Um, so all you have to do is, is kind of reach out and you can, you can simply have coffee together or breakfast and, ask the person. Specifically what you're looking for. You know, could, could we have coffee once a month? And, and talk about some of the leadership lessons that you've learned in your career. You know, um, it can be as simple as that. I think that having a mentor. It just provides a tremendous resource, a confidant, um, someone who has experience, someone who can coach and give you tips. So, uh, establishing a mentor I think is, is one of the most important things that, um, a woman can do who aspires to leadership. You also mentioned. At the beginning of the podcast, you know, reading. Um, and, and I think that's important. I read a lot of John Maxwell books too,.So I think that, you know, reading, doing research and reading about, leadership should be a never ending. I. Process for sure. But then another practical step that, aspiring leaders can take is to look for leadership opportunities that are not, um, formalized in a title. So, for example, if there's a committee formed, whether it's a fund committee or a committee to implement a new procedure or whatever it is. Ask for that leadership role. You know, be a front runner when there are volunteer opportunities because that catches the attention of, of leaders in the organization. so I guess those are the three, three steps that I would recommend
Jason:That's great advice. I was actually gonna, I wanted to make sure we talked about mentoring because you have a whole chapter in the book dedicated to it, which I'm, it's the, I think the final chapter and it's so important to get a mentor and be a mentor, and so I'm glad that you highlighted that. I. Uh, the other thing I would add to that, as far as raising your hand for leadership roles, not only in the organization, very important and there are those opportunities sometimes to lead projects, but also even, uh, outside of your formal organization to gain that leadership experience at, at church, serving in different leadership roles or other parachurch organizations or even nonprofits. They're always looking for people to come and serve, you know, in board roles or committee roles and things like that. So that made me think about that.
Peggy:That's a great point. Yeah.
Jason:In chapter two of the book, you talk about making difficult decisions and you cite an article from, uh, Harvard Business Review that highlights that women tend to consider balancing the Different opinions and interests of others, and they tend to look for creative solutions, um, by considering multiple viewpoints. And I'm kind of paraphrasing here, you know, more than men, they tend, they tend towards that more than men. my experience, in leading people, those are critical factors in making decisions and working through conflict, right? Finding compromise, being able to bring a team together that maybe differs on ideas and opinions. Do you, so do you think in your experience that, um, women tend to have these problem solving tendencies? And how would you encourage women to leverage that problem solving? know, when they're working together or working with the team, especially cross-functional teams to solve problems.
Peggy:the thing that, that women do, and there's, there's tons of research that supports this, but I've, but I've also seen this, is we're not as competitive, you know, when we're making a decision or solving a problem. I think that there's more of a desire to find out what other other people think and, and what are their contributions and what are their strengths and how can they contribute to making the decision or solving the problem. a little more creativity, involved and I think what happens is that women are stereotyped as being emotional and not practical and logical and making decisions, but research actually contradicts that. So I think when, again, kind of going back to when women doubt themselves, I think they can stand on kind of their decision-making superpower that, you know, they have this ability to include Others and to seek out, um, to seek community, more community-based solutions and decisions. So, um, I guess I would just encourage women to embrace that and not see it as a weakness. Um, I know the flip side is, you know, I had one woman say to me, yeah, I was asking around getting, gathering feedback, and one of her coworkers said, you know, it doesn't make you look very confident when you When you do that, you should just make the decision. And, and that's not accurate. you know, um, that, that's exactly kind of the, the flip side where we wanna be competitive and have all the right answers. Um, so I just, I just encourage women to, um, go with that instinct and that intuition of, you know, I don't have to have all the answers. And if there's five people in the room. they're gonna have something to contribute and we can solve this together. And there's nothing weak you know about that. In fact, it's a.
Jason:Yeah, no, there's a lot of wisdom in, and I've had to learn this the hard way. I am a activator and I tend to be pretty decisive. Once I'm clear on a situation and I've made the mistake in my career and I can tend to still do this. I. Of just go and don't get input. And I have, it's burned me and where I've had, you know, we will make a decision or make a change. And you talk about this too, and you have a, um, you have a chapter on managing change, change leadership, change management, and you talk about the importance of gathering. input from others, but also hearing from them on their possible anxieties and fears of change that's being implemented upon them. And, you know, and I, I work in manufacturing and so there's a very much. You know, large groups of people that can be a little bit, you know, you've got salaried, white collar, blue collar, and some of those decisions can be made on high and driven down into the organization. And you share an example of that I think in a, um, when some changes were made in the warehouse when you were responsible for logistics and and so being willing, and not only willing, but having a desire to go and listen. To the input of those people who are gonna be affected, um, a can make those changes go a lot smoother. It's kind of the old saying of, go slow to go fast, you know, instead of implementing something without, and then it blows up. And again, I've, I've done this where you quickly implement, you quickly implement something and it blows up. It doesn't work. You've got a revolt on your hands, and now you're in damage control mode. Versus I'm gonna take a some time and, you know, talk to people that this is gonna impact. And it's not just to get, and I was corrected on this one time where I said, well, I wanna get their buy-in. And I had a leader tell me, well, I want to get their input. It's not just selling them on your idea, it's letting them help form the idea and help form, uh, you know, whatever that policy change or whatever it is. Because they, and you, and you talk about this too, in change management. they're at the front lines and they have ideas on how to make it better and how to make their job go smoother. So I think, yeah, for women who tend to want to go gather that input and want to, I guess, be more collaborative and to listen, listen and be more empathetic. I do think that's, uh, you said a superpower. I think that's a really That's a strength for them to do that. And I've, you know, I've had the privilege of, of, um, working for some women. I, I worked for president of a company in my last role who is a, um, a female who I have a tremendous amount of respect for. And she did, she brought our team of leaders and it was a, a bunch of alpha male leaders, to be honest with you. But she, she brought us together in a way that, you know, that, that probably a lot of leaders couldn't because we were all kind of strong Willed. Yeah. Alpha male, you know, stereotypical guys. And she, she really did bring that team together in a really, uh, powerful way and, and got us to work together and collaborate. So yeah, that is, that's, that's good
Peggy:Collaboration is, is definitely a strength, not a weakness for sure. And I think women have a, a knack for it, and I think we should embrace that.
Jason:No, I totally agree. I totally agree on that. Um, chapter three, you talk about, uh, what I think is a critical issue that can be a make or break for any leader, and that's addressing conflict, not only conflict in the workplace, but you also talk, and I'm gonna kind of blend a couple of topics together, a couple of chapters, but whether it be conflict in the workplace or even addressing performance issues and being proactive on that. talk a little bit about why that's so important. I think it's neglected. I've seen it, I've seen it undermine leaders and even organizations when it's not addressed head on or addressed in a healthy way. So talk a little bit about your thoughts on that.
Peggy:Yeah, workplace conflict, um, obviously is inevitable. There's always gonna be, you know, conflict with the people, you know, the people you manage, the managers versus the leaders, the frontline. You know, there's always gonna be conflict, but I think how we manage it as leaders is what makes a difference. And what I found, um, my last job, I was, um. managers reported to me. So I was, a leader for people who managed other people. And one of the things that. Was the biggest challenge for new managers was they, they didn't want to address conflict because it felt like they were being mean or because, you know, they, they dreaded dealing with it, so they just didn't wanna deal with it. So this is definitely an area, I think, for new leaders, new managers, or or just people who are in leadership roles. Who are people pleasers. Um, it can become detrimental for the organization because when we don't deal with it, what happens? It grows
Jason:gets worse. so it turns into an
Peggy:it gets, it turns into an ugly monster. And then something that could have been handled in one conversation turns into, you know, a performance issue or a problem in the company that is affecting everyone. And I think leaders, we have to take off the The blinders and accept that what we see as a conflict may be just between two people, is never just between two people. There are always camps forming one, you know, one side or the other. There's, and, and if we're not doing something, employees are talking about the fact that we're not doing something. What's wrong with them? Why don't they address this? Why don't they deal with this? So while all of that's going on, what is not happening? Productive work for the company So I think there's a, a lot of downsides, but what I try to do is help coach people and help them realize that, you know, think about what it looks like on the other side of conflict. You know, one of the managers, um, I. Who reported to me, I said, how would it feel to actually walk through your department and feel great about how you handled something and know that it had been addressed, it wasn't affecting the team, it wasn't affecting their morale. Um, and you had handled it, you know, how would that feel? What would that look like? And I think if, if, leaders can imagine the results, what, what's it gonna look like on the other side? That can be a powerful driver. To address the conflict head on, you know, they're gonna feel so much better. They're not gonna have that monkey on their back anymore.
Jason:yeah,
Peggy:So that's kind of the key thing I try to get, across to help people take that step and get to the other side of it.'cause the organization's gonna be better, the leader's gonna be stronger, the team's gonna be stronger, happier, more productive. So Have to focus on the result.
Jason:I No, it's absolutely true. And when you do address it. It and you address it early. That's something you talk about. Address it early, is your confidence as a leader increases because you know, you, you know, you should be addressing this and when you don't, and I I'm talking through experience when you don't. Your, your conscience is telling you you're not dealing with this, you know, you're not, are you the leader you should be. That's the whole, you know, you, you're, you just, it just erodes your confidence. I'll share a quick story of, uh, one of the guests I had on, on, on my podcast who I've known for decades. This is somebody who I look up to. He's later in his career, so I think he's, I don't know, I'm gonna guess 60 or close to 60. Been leading people a long time and I asked him, What is something that you struggled with earlier in your career and do you still struggle with it? And he said he was very transparent and he said, dealing with performance issues, I hate having those conversations. But he said, what I've learned over the years through not dealing with it is how bad it gets when I don't deal with it. And if I, so that motivation you're talking about with thinking about. Keeping the end in mind as Stephen Covey said in his, you know, classic seven habits and just using that to motivate you to go address it and, you know, have that tough conversation.
Peggy:Yeah, that whole chapter, um, you know, being transparent, And, and you mentioned journals earlier, you know, and I've, I've kept journals. I have over a hundred, which which really came in handy to help me write the, write the book. But this chapter was formed on my Failures, you know, like the, you know, that's where I, I was thinking, you know, I don't want other leaders to go through what I went through. When I didn't address something and it got totally outta hand and how I felt after and how it damaged my credibility. I think that, uh, lessons learned are, are hard lessons, but that's why I wanted to write this chapter.'cause my hope and my heart was, you know, this is not easy to deal with, but there is a way to deal with it that's godly and practical and effective.
Jason:I think you did a really good job again by the book, because it's step-by-step, practical tips and advice on how to deal with it. So, which I think were really good. Uh, chapter six, you talk about a really important topic for leaders, and that's change management. We've hit on that a little bit. One. One of the specific tips that you gave that I really loved, I loved them all, but this one I think is overlooked a lot, is to communicate often and early when change is coming and being implemented. Can you talk a little bit more about what does that look like and why that's so important that off, you know, communicate often, communicate early.
Peggy:Uh, I think that's critical. And the reason is what, what I've seen happen over and over throughout my career is leadership gets an idea about a change. And it could be a very valid, important and worthwhile needed change. But then what happens is the leadership team talks about that change. It might be for months, sometimes it's even a year, um, or more, and. They don't want the rest of the organization to find out about it because it's not cooked yet. You know, there there's a million reasons we don't, we, you know, we're not ready. It's not ready to roll out. We're not sure. So several things happen when that that communication about the change doesn't happen early and often. And that is that even though leadership doesn't wanna admit it, it. that information gets out. So the team ends up finding out about it anyway. And that that's never a good thing, you know? But the other thing is, if leadership bruise this change, let's say even for six months, and then they just all of a sudden roll it out to the company and in leadership's mind, you know, oh, we've got this step-by-step process, we're gonna roll it out. there's a huge disconnect because the leadership team has been talking about this and examining all the angles, talking about the pros and cons for six months. But here are the people that are gonna be most impact impacted by it, and they're just hearing about it. So there's this huge gap between them and those, the people that are gonna be impacted by it have to catch up. So the better way to do it is not to be afraid, you know, at the inception of the, you know, oh, I think we're going to change software systems. Okay, well who better to bring in on this than the people who use the software way more often than we do You know? So let's talk to, let's start by having a conversation with them. So. There's a lot of different reasons, but there seems to be kind of this fear, um, or this need for control that leaders can have that make them wanna hold that information close. But I've never seen that work out well for the organization. The change itself or the leaders. I mean, it's better to bring in, um, the people who are impacted by the change as early as
Jason:Yeah. Yeah.
Peggy:And that's the best, that's the best guarantee for success.
Jason:Yeah, let that, let it leak a little bit. Right. Some controlled leaks of what, yeah. What's coming? I think no, that I, again, again, I, I'm, I'm with you. Most of the lessons that are super ingrained in my head. I learned the hard way. That's how I learn, unfortunately, so, yeah. So over my career, when I've been in that exact same situation where in your head you're like, oh, this is, we've, we have Thought this thing out so well amongst this leadership team, and then we're gonna go implement it. And Yeah. And there's things you didn't think about, legit, things you didn't think about that now are being brought up by, you know, those that are impacted. And sometimes it's just, it's just an emotional response of, we had no idea. We had no idea this was even coming or being talked about. And so I heard Somebo, I heard somebody say one time that they like to give their team a shot across the bow. You know that this is being considered, we're starting to think about this. And so I've learned to, you know, to try to do that with my staff. And then also because again, I work in a production environment, we'll even float those things to that team and say, Hey, here's something that we're considering, you know, we're noodling on. And then just kinda wait and see what questions might come and,.You know, be ready to answer those questions. We're, we're getting ready to implement a new, uh, ERP system. So you talk about software and it's important for the organization. it's you know, it, we're, we're going to do it, but we're, you know, we're starting, we're early, early, early in the process, but we're now starting to pull our staff in, the people that are gonna live with it, and they're asking some good questions that we hadn't thought of yet. Unfortunately, it's early enough where we can say, oh, good question. Let's find out now about that, and let's make sure that. Um, you know, you have input and you're involved in this. So anyways, I just thought, because I've learned that hard lesson, that's super important. I wanted to highlight that. I think that was a critical factor that you highlighted. That was one of several that you walked through in change management in that chapter. So, um, yeah, again, lots of good, lots of good advice there. Um, you talk about, I'm just reading through my notes here in chapter seven. You talk about. Leading in male dominated industries. So I've spent, I've spent 30 years in manufacturing. I've spent, I'm a journeyman, by trade. I came up through the trades. I have, I literally can remember this is gonna date me and I hope this, I don't know if people will think like, what this, what this makes people think about me, but it's just reality. Peggy, I can remember, I can remember working in a factory. I don't know. There's a hundred plus people and one female in the plant and one female in the, no, maybe two females in the office. I mean, you know, that it was that dominated. Now it's not like that anymore, but, um, so for sure dominated male industry. I've, I, I've, I've, uh, when I was in the trades, I, I, I have had one coworker who was a skilled trades person. She was an electrician, but all the years I've ever worked around Electricians, pipe fitters, millwrights, all, you know, riggers. Very, very male dominated. But so you have a whole chapter on advice for women who are leading in those, uh, in those in industries. I, so a question I have for you is, what advice would you give to men like myself who work in these male dominated industries? regarding how we should, how we should think about, help, encourage, um, ladies who are, who are also leaders or who aspire to be leaders in male dominated industries. You have, you give a whole list of what they are. Engineering, manufacturing, agriculture, um, you know how you're talking probably to a lot of, I think, believers, uh, believing men and women here on the show, on the podcast. So, How should we think about that? How should we approach that? You think as men?
Peggy:I love that question. Thanks for asking it. I think that one of the first things that men can do is be open to the idea that women do face really specific and unique challenges in a male dominated industry. So I think being open to that, um, because I've heard, I don't think it's. The intent is ill, but I've, I've heard, you know, men say, well, I, I've never seen that, or I don't, I don't think that's a problem. Or I think that might be how they feel, but it's not a real problem. So I think maybe not, not doing that, you know, not, not closing the door on the possibility that, hey, this. This woman is qualified, she has a right to work here. What are the challenges that she's gonna face because she's a woman? You know, asking that question and being open to the fact that there are gonna be unique challenges. Um, being aware of stereotypes. know, I, I've seen this play out because I, I've worked obviously in a, in a male dominated industry almost my entire career. So, um, I've experienced this where, um. You know, there's a meeting going on and there's different perspectives being discussed, and it's good conflict. You know, you're kind of working through, different Viewpoints. And a woman who's in the conversation raises her voice a little bit and she's, you know, they're like, don't get so aggressive. What's, what's the deal? You know? But if, if a, if a guy does it, you know, oh, he's assertive, he's backing his point. You know, so be aware of stereotypes and, and, don't, you know, don't let those stereotypes interfere. With the workplace and with, you know, like if, um, one of the examples I gave is I had one boss who even though I was second positionally to him, I was the only, you know, I had the most authority in the room besides my boss. He would always tell me in front of everyone else, you know, to take notes.
Jason:Hmm. Yeah,
Peggy:uh, and that was kind of a, you know. It is not that I minded taking notes, but there's a certain bias that's happening in that. And so I had several peers who began taking men, who began taking on that role equally, you know, to kind of shift that bias and, and change it. So I, I think being an advocate, looking for opportunities to step in when, when bias happens and, and..Be willing to do something that creates change. You know, we have to first be aware
Jason:Yeah.
Peggy:and then we have to be willing to step out of our comfort zone and help make changes that affect people, even if those people are not by majority us. You know?'cause otherwise we, you know, if, if we're not gonna do it, who's gonna do it? So, I think advocacy is critical. Awareness and advocacy.
Jason:Yeah. And I think being, being willing to have those conversations, I guess if you have a Hopefully a healthy enough relationship that you can ask those questions and you know, a ask what you can do individually to encourage them to help them. Or if there's things that are being done or being said that are, uh, you know, showing some of that bias towards them is important to do that.
Peggy:That's so true, and even though it's not easy to do, because I experienced this myself, but I. When someone makes a remark, you know, like I had, a woman who was out because she, you know, she was out on maternity leave, um, and she wanted to work from home a little bit before working from home was completely the norm.
Jason:Yeah. Yeah.
Peggy:one of the guys commented, you know, well, you can see that she's not gonna be dedicated, you know. Things are gonna fall through the cracks, blah, blah, blah. And even though it wasn't easy for me to do, I asked him to go to lunch and I kind of dug into that. And, you know, not aggressively, but you know, I said, you know what, what's making you think that? Or what are your, what are your thoughts about that? And we had a conversation and it, it really changed everything, especially when I said, well, you know, I'm a single mom, so, you know, would you say that I'm less dedicated to my job? Because I'm a mom, you know? And he was like, no. And so it kind of shifted his perspective, but it also helped me understand kind of where he was, we he was coming from. So I feel like one relationship at a time, you can change those biases or those stereotypes. You know, you have to be willing to invest though though, and, and, and be willing to be uncomfortable at the start of the conversation knowing that it's gonna end up okay and better.
Jason:I, I worked with a lady one time who was a we worked in continuous improvement and so she, and she was kind of a, a regional, uh, CI leader. I was at plant level and she was a tremendous amount of respect for her. Super smart, very technical. And so she was in, I think, doing some training like with me, helping me at, at, at my plant, definitely in a, um, I had a lot of respect for her and she was in a, a higher level role. And I'll never forget this. I would often refer to a group of ladies, Uh, as girls, oh, the, the girls this, or the girls that
Peggy:Yeah.
Jason:thinking anything of it. And she corrected me one day, very ni, very politely, very professionally and just said that that is disrespectful to, I think, to call women. These are grown women, you know, um, girls. And I'm like, I never, I never meant anything by it. And I never, but to this day, and that was, that was 20 years ago. I will Not do that And so I, you know, having that conversation, again, a tremendous amount of respect for that lady. Uh, I saw her not only as a peer, but even, you know, somebody I looked up to in my field. And, uh, so I was, you know, I'm glad, I'm glad that she was, she felt comfortable being able to correct me on that, a small thing, but just, I guess, you know, ties into what you were saying to have that,
Peggy:Totally. Yeah. And you're, and relationships, you, the relationship that you had with her enabled that to be. A positive thing, you know her. So I think relationship is key and being willing to invest in that so you can have those
Jason:Right. Yeah. Uh, chapter 14, you talk about performance issues. So again, super critical for leaders, uh, to address and, and sometimes they just are ignored. You gave a lot of, you gave a lot of good advice. A lot of very practical tips in that. Uh, there's a couple of'em that I wanna have you talk about and specifically, um, I mentioned this briefly earlier, but you, two things. You said that when we see a performance issue, we should address it quickly. And the other thing you said was to stick to one issue. I think those are two really important things. I'd like you to elaborate on why there's, those are important.'cause sometimes people don't, people can a let it go too long. We've talked a little bit about that. But then also once they address it, it's a litany of issues that they just overwhelm somebody with. So can you talk a little bit more about why we should not do that?
Peggy:Yeah, again, an area where I, I learned the hard way, um, over time, but I think that addressing The problem, it's kinda like what we talked about with conflict. As soon as a problem happens, we need to address it. And the reason that timeliness is so important is that it needs to be relevant to the employee. So if something happens today, if, if I'm in a meeting with one of my employees and she's un unprofessional or she comes unprepared, I need to address that right away. It needs to be important enough that I prioritize it and I handle it that day, you know, so I have a specific example for her and I can, I can tell her what it looks like to change that and we can come to an agreement about that. Because what happens is if, if leaders. You know, performance, like, um, your podcast guest said, is not the most favorite thing for leaders to deal with. So the easy thing is to let everything else, all the other priorities build up and keep pushing that down and pushing that down. And then what happens is the one performance issue compounds. And it's either the same performance issue has happened multiple times, or there's three more on top of that one, and then we're sitting down with this huge list that's overwhelming and irrelevant to the employee.
Jason:Yeah.
Peggy:You know, they're not keeping a journal of what they did wrong. They may not even know it you know? Um, so. One, we need to handle it one issue at a time, and we need to be timely. And even though that may not be comfortable or convenient for us, that is what is going to affect positive change in the employee. And that should be our goal. You know, we want our employee to be the best they can be. It's not that we wanna sit down with a list that looks like, you know, a, a A record of how we're going to get rid of them. You know, that's, that's not the point. The point is to develop them and to help them. So we have to prioritize that and make it happen. And I don't care how busy a leader is, you always have, it doesn't take long to do it. If you're addressing a performance issue, you could do that in 10 minutes, um, and come out and be done.
Jason:You could I, and I would even say totally agree. And I will say there's been times when it, again, a minor thing going to a meeting, something that needs to be addressed. You can literally coming outta that meeting, ask'em to come into your office, close the door, say, Hey, saw this, I'd like for you to, you need to correct that. And oftentimes it's a, okay, I got it. That's it. I mean, this can be, this can be a 62nd, 120 second. Um, quick, small, minor adjustment instead of waiting until, you know, I think about guardrails, you know, kind of keeping you small adjustments instead of waiting until they're clean off the road, way out in the field. You gotta gotta call it wrecker.
Peggy:Yes.'cause then we overcorrect. They, we overcorrect and, and that results in a complete disaster usually for, for the employee. Um, and it, and it doesn't, um, it doesn't bode well for the company or the, or the leader either because the other thing that happens when we let performance issues go, and I've seen this time and time again, is everyone in the whole company, is usually, or in, depending on how big the company is, everyone in the department, aware of this performance
Jason:Yep,
Peggy:And so you're, you know, my credibility as a leader is just eroding away every day that I'm, I'm not addressing the performance issue. So it, you know, it's far, far reaching. So I, think it is, um, important to prioritize.
Jason:it is. The other thing I will say I thought about while we were talking here is when you're not addressing it, you're allowing a new standard to be set. Meaning that behavior can be replicated. Whatever it is, you know, whatever it is. Let's say, we'll go to your example of just coming to a meeting unprepared. If you accept that, you get what you accept. That's something I heard a long time ago about leadership. You get, you get what you accept so that you have an employee who comes to a meeting unprepared time and time again. Well, unfortunately that's, other people are gonna see that and do that. Not everybody. There's some people who are just self-motivated. They'll always come prepared. But you are gonna lower the standard for your team and ultimately the culture, again, a whole topic chapter that you talk about culture, but as, as leaders, that's part of our protecting the culture to say, that's not acceptable here and we're gonna, you know, we're gonna have a higher standard and not let that, not let that kind of bleed across the organization.
Peggy:Yeah, I love how you mentioned the people that, um, Are always gonna come prepared no matter what. And I think it's important to talk about that for one second because those people, if they see that we are not addressing performance issues and that we're letting things slide that shouldn't, all of those things that slide affect the people who do come prepared they affect the A game, um, players on the team. And those are the people who are gonna get demoralized and demotivated and go get another job.
Jason:Yeah.
Peggy:because we're not taking care of business in a way that makes the, the company the best that it can be.'cause that affects everyone. So, um, yeah, I think, like you said, it sets a lower standard, but then it impacts the, the top performers and they're not gonna stick around.
Jason:And then your average performance just goes down further because you've let, you've let that performance slip. The people who are kind of keeping, keeping the perform, let's say the average performance up, they're gone and it's just, it's just a, it's a death spiral of a culture.
Peggy:a cycle.
Jason:is a cycle. And, and the opposite's true when you have a higher standard. So you, you know, the, the people who are under performers who are just feel like they're constantly Maybe being challenged at a higher level than they're comfortable with, they will leave ultimately, you know, we can walk through that process with them and they will eventually leave the organization'cause they're not a fit. And that just raises the bar and every and, and everybody, you know, everybody kind of steps up and you just build that culture. So that's a good, that's a whole, yeah, that's a whole nother topic. But it's, it's so true. And it's, it's the responsibility of the leader. The other thing that you talked about with performance management, which I think is Very important is for the leader to consider what part they're, they may be playing in that poor performance. You give a whole list of things to consider and I think that one of the most important things we can be doing as leaders to prevent that having regular meaningful one-to-ones. You gave, you gave multiple areas where we can be failing, but I think that several of those things can be Dr. Addressed through regular meaningful, one-to-ones. Would you, I guess, would you agree with that or would you, you know, talk a little bit about your thoughts on that.
Peggy:Yeah, I think the one-to-ones are really important because they establish consistency. And what consistency says to an employee is, I'm important to you and. that is a great foundation for relationship. It's a great foundation for trust. So once you've established that, then the employee feels more comfortable talking to you about, um. Issues before they become performance issues. And then you also have their respect and their trust so that when a performance issue does happen, you can address it in a way that compels change instead of it being a disciplinary, you know, I'm coming down on you type of situation. So, um, this all came about because I know that when leaders get really busy, one-to-ones. Can be something that is quickly canceled, you know, and, and I've found that employees are very understanding. They, if things are, if there's a crisis going on in the company or you have a personal crisis, they get it if you have to cancel or reschedule. But when it becomes a pattern
Jason:Right.
Peggy:and that consistency is broken. Then that sends a reverse message to the employee, which is, I'm really not that important to you. I'm really not a high priority. And then trust starts to break down.
Jason:Yep.
Peggy:So all of that impairs, um, the ability to have transparent and open and, and genuine conversations between the leader, you know, and the employee. So I think, um, the one-to-ones are. Are a lot more important than, than I think leaders sometimes them credit for. Um,
Jason:yes.
Peggy:yeah,
Jason:I don't know how many times I've had a conversation with a leader that hasn't started doing them yet, and I'm trying to get them to do them regularly. And they're like, well, I mean, I talk to my team, you know, we talk and I'm like, it's, it's, it's not the same. It is absolutely not the same. And I think that anyone who Yeah, anyone who does them and really at least gives it whatever, say six months, you're doing weekly one-to-ones I do mine weekly, half hour. And let's say you do it on some regular basis that once you do it, you will see the value and you will, I think, not stop. I think a good leader will just not stop because they just see there's so much value in doing those. So can't overemphasize that. And since, I mean, since your book is really focused on women leadership in the workplace, I will say in my experience, when I've had Two, uh, female leaders. I'm trying to think through, I think two female leaders I've worked for. And then I've had other ladies that I've worked with, colleagues that were peers of mine. And I will say that in my experience, I found it easier to be more open and vulnerable in those relationships, I think in general, uh, than I have with some of the guys I've worked for. Not all of'em. I had, I've had some men who I felt very, very much, I could be just completely open. They were There was a genuine, real relationship there. And so I would say for, you know, for ladies who are in leadership, I think that is something that maybe God has wired you to be able to build that a genuine trusting relationship more, maybe a little more naturally than guys. Again, stereotypically not a hundred percent all the time, but the, and that is, that's where the, that's a superpower when you have that Relationship with your team and can have that, you know, those one-to-ones and build that relationship and have those conversations is where they're really, the magic starts to happen at the, you know, at the team level. So, yeah. And when I look back, yeah, the ladies that I've worked for, great relationships still to this day, we do anything for'em. And I always felt like going into those meetings, I could be completely transparent and they were listening and they generally cared about me as a person and my career. So.
Peggy:Yeah, and what you just said, I think that is a great summary of the heart of leadership. You know, that relationship where we're really caring, um, about every employee and, and that does nothing but strengthen the organization all the way across the board.
Jason:Yep. Oh, absolutely. Well, the last chapter we already mentioned, this is on mentoring. I was gonna talk about mentoring, but we've already talked about it. Uh, it's just so important. Um, and we haven't even touched on all the cha how many chapters in the book? We didn't even touch on all of'em.
Peggy:16.
Jason:16 chapters.
Peggy:Yeah.
Jason:Yeah. So this is just, it's such a practical book. It's, I've just, I'm a, I'm gonna get copies and I'm gonna give them, I can think at least half a dozen ladies that I'm gonna give'em to. So I can't wait to get some In my hands. Yeah. No, I mean, and I mean that, I mean, it's, it is really good. So I'm, uh, glad I was able to be a part of, uh, getting the word out. Is there anything else before we wrap up that you would like to talk about, uh, in regard to the book that we haven't hit on yet? I.
Peggy:The only thing I wanted to mention is that I know that, um, women who work in Especially women leaders, um, don't have a lot of time. They're time starved, you know, trying to take care of their families or other commitments. Um, so the book is designed so that every chapter is standalone. So if a woman's dealing with conflict in the workplace, she can flip to that chapter. If she wants to seek a mentor or be a mentor, she can flip to that chapter. So it's designed to be used, um, whatever, uh, problem. A woman is facing, she should be able to flip to that chapter and, and hopefully get the help and the biblical support that she's looking for. So my, my heart is that it, it can be, um, that pocket size mentor for women who may not have the time to go out and, and find a mentor themselves.
Jason:And I would say as someone who's read it, it's absolutely, uh, the design is there. Uh, it's, it's, it is a quick, you can flip right to that chapter and, and read through it. There's practical, practical steps. I mean, I love the bullet. I tend to write in bullet points, and you do that too. Boom, boom, boom. Here's some things that you can do and consider, here's biblical support for it. So yeah, it's like having a, it's like a pocket mentor, although neither you or I would say don't go get a mentor. This should be in conjunction with a mentor. So go get a mentor as well.
Peggy:Right.
Jason:Look.
Peggy:That's true. Great point. Yes.
Jason:Okay sister. Um, I'm gonna make sure we will link to where people can find the book and we will link to your website where people can reach out to you. As you said, you work with and coach, uh, women in the marketplace. So we'll make sure it's easy to get ahold of you both on the podcast and on the YouTube channel. So thank you for, thank you for being on. I hope this is a help to other people. I love talking to you. This is the second time we've got a chance to talk. I like talking leadership with you both times.
Peggy:Same. It's so fun. Thank you, Jason, and thanks again for all your support with the book and reading it and endorsing it, and I'm grateful for you. Thank you.
Jason:Yeah. And we'll pray that the Lord, uh, glorifies himself, advances his kingdom through, uh, workplace leaders through that, through all that work that you put into it. So that's, that's what we'll be praying for.
Peggy:Amen.
Jason:All right. Thank you for joining me again today to learn from another experienced workplace leader who is striving to honor Christ and her work. I recommend for our female listeners that you go and buy one of Peggy's books or get one for a female and leadership that, you know, I look forward to having you back again next month. I pray that your work glorifies Christ while making a positive impact to those you lead.
