Jeshua Lauka - Attorney and Partner @ David, Wierenga & Lauka P.C.

Jeshua Lauka is an attorney based in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Devoted to advancing effective biblical leadership, Jeshua shares profound insights into what it means to be a servant leader in all spheres of life. 

Beyond his professional journey, he opens up about his powerful personal testimony rooted in resilience and faith. Join us as we explore how God's work has shaped Jeshua's life and leadership principles, and how you can apply these lessons into your own contexts. 
Don't forget to subscribe to our new YouTube channel for more of such inspiring content. 

Resources mentioned on the show 

• Jeshua's LinkedIn page 
• Every Good Endeavor book 
• Craig Groeschel Podcast 
• John Maxwell books
• Faith Driven Entrepreneur

Transcript

Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO: 0:00

Welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast. I am your host, Jason Woodard. Before I introduce this month's guests, I want to say how much I appreciate those who listen and support the show. My prayer has been that as long as there are listeners and guests, I will continue to do this ministry, Lord willing. This is the beginning of our third season and I am excited to announce that we are introducing a YouTube channel for the podcast. The channel will host the same interviews that you hear here but with the video content of the show. So be sure to check it out and subscribe to the all new Biblical Leadership at Work YouTube channel. Now, on to the show. On this month's episode, you will meet Jeshua Lauka, who is an attorney working in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Jeshua is passionate about leadership and shares some insightful words of wisdom regarding effective biblical leadership. He also shares about his fascinating testimony, including how his single mom took the family to church, regardless of the potential roadblocks.

Jeshua: 1:04

but my mom, um, when she made the decision to take her kids to church, she just. Found someplace, um, that, uh, she knew, uh, she and my dad when they were together before we were born, knew a pastor in the, in inner city of Saginaw. She tracked him down and we went to his church, his small church in the inner city of Saginaw, uh, and not a great part of town. I remember the first night going to that church. It was a Thursday night and we were scared. It was just, we didn't wanna the walk from the parking lot to the church.

Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO: 1:35

I love how Jeshua shares his realization as a teenager about who Jesus was and who he came to save.

Jeshua: 1:43

And it was there that encountered the God of the universe who came down from heaven to be with people like me. You know, I was a, I was a nobody from a family of nobodies, and that's who Jesus spent his time with. He spent his time with the broken, the outcast, the drunks, the prostitutes. The others of society. And I saw God that wanted to be with those people and would end up dying for those people. And so

Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO: 2:07

Jeshua gives us a lot to consider regarding leadership in this episode. But I love how he and his firm boil down their leadership focus.

Jeshua: 2:17

And so what it boils down to, and I've been pretty open to anybody sitting across the table from us that are interested in applying to work with our firm, who we are. We love God and we love people. And, and that's just the bottom line. And so those are those core driving factors and that might not work for, for everybody, but that's who we are and that's what drives everything that I do personally and as a firm. I

Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO: 2:43

So join me now as we get to know Jeshua and hear how God is working in and through him in the area of law.

Jason: 2:51

All right. Well, JE Laka brother, I appreciate you, uh, being on the podcast with me and, uh, getting to know you today with the audience. Thanks for, thanks for taking time outta your day.

Jeshua: 3:01

Very glad to be here. Thanks for asking me, Jason.

Jason: 3:03

So let's, uh, let's dig right in and, uh, tell me a little bit about your, your career background. You know, let's go back maybe to education and career progression and what are you up to now?

Jeshua: 3:15

Yeah. Thanks. ThAnks for asking. So, um, I'm a lawyer. I, I I went to law school. I always knew that I, that I wanted to go to law school particularly. Um. For me, when I came to Faith in Christ when I was 14, kind of, um, under wanted to learn law and wanted to do something that was justice related, it, uh, it was just a, a, a logical step for me. So went to law school ultimately at one of the few Christian law schools in the country called Regent out in Virginia Beach area, and going there, um. Really didn't know exactly what I wanted to do. I did know that at first I thought maybe some international nonprofit work, like with International Justice Mission or something, something along those lines. But ultimately, um, ended up working private practice in a, in a business law firm in Kalamazoo, Michigan. And, um, after some time kind of Uh, understood that the things that I really enjoyed, uh, about practicing law. So fast forward, uh, the last 12 years or so, I've been at my firm, David Ween and Laka was David and Wga before I joined a partner about five years ago. So, David, we and Laka. We're a boutique business law firm in downtown Grand Rapids, Michigan. We serve businesses anywhere between a startup to a mid-size, privately held business, and, um, we also serve families with estate planning. So business And estate planning and, uh, anything that has to do with, with working with businesses and, um, and, and estate plans as welfare for families is what I do in the other lawyers at my firm. I've got two partners and we've got a couple of other attorneys. We're growing and we've got about four other paralegals. So, uh, a size about 11 from about 11 right now.

Jason: 5:07

So were you from the West Michigan area growing up?

Jeshua: 5:10

No, I wasn't. I, I grew up in Saginaw, um, Saginaw, Michigan, which is very

Jason: 5:17

It is.

Jeshua: 5:18

culturally than West Michigan, and I've come to realize that over the last 15 years. And there's a, there was a reason we, we moved to the area when my Wife and I got married. We met at undergrad at Michigan State. My wife was from the Lansing area and she knew when, when we were coming back to Michigan from Virginia Beach, she knew the only place that she wanted to move was what the west part of the state. Uh, it's been a great place to live and raise a family.

Jason: 5:43

great. Yeah. I think that people that aren't from the state probably, you know, you think Michigan is Michigan, but I, I'm sure in many other states it's the same way. You've got, I think in Michigan, east and West and Upper Michigan and those are three different, very different cultures and uh, ways of living for sure. So while we're on the topic of family, tell us a little bit about your family.

Jeshua: 6:04

yeah. I'm married to my wife Annie. Uh, it's, uh, been about, it's going on 20 years, so it'll be 20 years in in October, and we have four children, um, Isaiah, Nolan, Tate and Elsa. So three teenage boys and, uh, a 10-year-old daughter, so 17, 14, 13, and a 10-year-old

Jason: 6:22

a lot of teenage stuff in the house at one time, brother. That's, I'll be praying for

Jeshua: 6:26

Yes, it is.

Jason: 6:27

And.

Jeshua: 6:28

I appreciate that. It's active and fun, but

Jason: 6:30

sure. You know, every, every stage has its challenges and blessings, so that's one thing I've realized. Uh, yeah, raising kids. What, tell us a little bit about, uh, how did you come to faith in the Lord Je Did you, was it, you know, growing up in a church, a home, or what did that look like?

Jeshua: 6:48

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks Thanks for asking Jason. And, and sometimes, um, people make a lot of presumptions, particularly About, about me, where I'm at. My, I get asked about my name quite a bit, Jesu, and so some assumptions, particularly in West Michigan. And, um, I did not grow up in a Christian household, so I grew up in Saginaw, um, and some not great parts of Saginaw. So I grew up in a pretty, uh, broken household. My earliest memories were my mom. And my dad, um, they were married, but they didn't live together. We were living my mom with my mom and my three brothers in a relative's basement. Neither my, both of my parents were high school dropouts. My dad was a heroin addict and he was never around and so. Ultimately, um, things in the house were very chaotic growing up, and it was when I was a young teenager when I was 14, that things were so chaotic and my mom did not really know what else to do. She did not have a safety net. So growing up with. Chaos, trauma, um, alcoholism on one side, drug addiction on the other. a a father who was out of the picture. Uh, my mom didn't know what else to do with a chaotic household and she said she was gonna take her kids to church. And as a 14-year-old who, religion wasn't a regular part of our life, I wanted nothing to do with it.

Jason: 8:15

thanks,

Jeshua: 8:15

It was just very, yeah, exactly. No, thanks mom. And, and looking back, I would say, you know, religion for me, probably I was agnostic at the time as a teenager. I thought I. I looked around and thought there had to be a God that created everything, but certainly not a God who was knowable or cared about me or my upbringing or, or my family, but my mom, um, when she made the decision to take her kids to church, she just. Found someplace, um, that, uh, she knew, uh, she and my dad when they were together before we were born, knew a pastor in the, in inner city of Saginaw. She tracked him down and we went to his church, his small church in the inner city of Saginaw, uh, and not a great part of town. I remember the first night going to that church. It was a Thursday night and we were scared. It was just, we didn't wanna the walk from the parking lot to the church. And, um, Um, going into that church, I remember just being, uh, my first, my first thoughts were I was just confused listening to music, hearing people worship and talk, and I just didn't understand why people would choose to spend their time. I. To sing together, to sing and hear someone talk about an old book. I really didn't get it as a teenager. My mom, I think to, to her credit, she kept making us show up and go to church. And so at some point in time, um, as the pastor would talk, I began to hear about Jesus. And Jesus intrigued me. And so I decided just to open up the Bible in the pew in front of me and go to the part that talked about Jesus. And it was there that encountered the God of the universe who came down from heaven to be with people like me. You know, I was a, I was a nobody from a family of nobodies, and that's who Jesus spent his time with. He spent his time with the broken, the outcast, the drunks, the prostitutes. The others of society. And I saw God that wanted to be with those people and would end up dying for those people. And so it was around that time when I was 14, it was going to church and, and wrestling through these things. And I thought, I, I, I, I just came to this proposition in my mind that if there was a God and that God loved me so much, that he would come down from heaven to be with me and that God would die for me. That was the most radical truth in existence and that God deserved my everything. And so at, uh, at the age of 14, I gave my life to Jesus. And, um, God radically changed the trajectory of my life.

Jason: 10:52

he does.

Jeshua: 10:52

So things weren't perfect, but he changed the trajectory of my life.

Jason: 10:57

What did your mom think? I mean, did you, you know, was your, was your faith, your newfound faith? Was it, I guess, something that she hit was experiencing as well or was it not? So like, what was her perspective of what was going on?

Jeshua: 11:12

Yeah, the good questions. And, um, for, for people who, I will just say this, life is messy,

Jason: 11:19

it is messy,

Jeshua: 11:20

Life is complicated. Because of our, our, our, our fallen nature life is just complicated. And, and so it's not, it's not binary. It's not either or. It's my mom. I I, my mom, um, she died a couple years ago and, um, as I, as I watched her take her last breath, it was kind of this bittersweet of looking at her life and saying. Life wasn't how it should be for her, it was, it was a hard life. Yet knowing that when she died, she had a saving faith. She, she did have a true faith That her, she's more alive than I am today. So, so going to, going back, yes, she, she definitely grabbed a hold of that faith. There were a lot of barriers in her life. I mean, that led to her making a lot of poor decisions that ultimately our kids. That that are, that me and my siblings were affected by, but you know, growing up it, so the, the process of of, of my conversion and, and growing up, part of that was healing work that, that God had to do. And, and it, it was a process. And it's always a process. It is, it's a lifelong

Jason: 12:27

Sanctification, right? Like you said, it is messy. It's not just a, it's not even just a linear Upward trend. There's yeah. Ups and downs. That's an amazing story, man. I love it. I love hearing what, how God worked in people's lives and families. So thank you for sharing that with us, Jeshua.

Jeshua: 12:43

Yeah, Thank you.

Jason: 12:44

awesome. So let's talk a little bit about leadership. I would like to understand, and what do you see as like your core principle of leadership when you think about, you know, leadership, there's so much That goes into that, and I, you know, by now at where you are in your career, I wonder what does that kind of boil down for you, effective leadership for you?

Jeshua: 13:06

Yeah. Wow. That's, that's, that is, uh, it's a great question. I think it's a timely question where we are in our culture and society, but, um, I. I, I look at all of these leadership books out there. I, I love reading. I'm a, I'm an avid reader. I read a lot of different leadership and, um, just being effective. And I think it really, it, it boils down to wisdom. I. I. think that we can be, we can be knowledgeable and still be unwise. And when I look at these, these books out there, these people who've wrote in great, uh, great books on, on wi on leadership out there. The, the commonalities I see the overlap that, that they're just obvious, um, are there. And a lot of these commonalities recognize Whether they overtly recognize it in their books or where they just, it's implied is that these are enduring principles that come from someplace, and I would say they come from The biblical truth of who God is and who he's crate is to do be and how life just works better when we have these principles. And so I model what leadership looks like off of Jesus the last couple of years I've been, are able to articulate, as our firm has grown over the last couple of years, we, we started off, uh, as a smaller law firm. We still are, but we've just naturally and organically grown. And through that process, I and my partners, we've done a lot of interviewing as we've looked to potentially onboard new lawyers. And part of that in onboarding, uh, that interviewing process has allowed me to articulate our firm culture and our values. And so what it boils down to, and I've been pretty open to anybody sitting across the table from us that are interested in applying to work with our firm, who we are. We love God and we love people. And, and that's just the bottom line. And so those are those core driving factors and that might not work for, for everybody, but that's who we are and that's what drives everything that I do personally and as a firm. I have two partners. We share core values, which is great to be, it's essential to be aligned, but I can safely say that that's who we are. We love God and we love people. And when we're focused on others. Others, meaning God and others on the people that we serve, whether it's people in our team or it's the clients that we serve or other relationships, then things just go better that way.

Jason: 15:42

I think that too often believers do not see how their secular, quote unquote, secular work. Advances the kingdom is a fulfillment of their calling as believers. And I wanna get your thoughts, Jeshua, on how being a lawyer and leading, helping to lead a law firm does fulfill the calling that God has placed on your life and how it is in your view, how do you see it as kingdom work? How do you see it as, uh, really mission's work? Uh, above and beyond even being able to, you know, share the gospel at work. But I mean, the work itself, like how do you see that as advancing the kingdom?

Jeshua: 16:22

Great question, and I, I don't want to misattribute this quote. It could have been a lot of people that, the last person I heard was maybe Tim Tebow, but in all things preach the gospel. and when necessary use words.

Jason: 16:36

Yep. Yeah, and I've had, you know what, I will tell you I have, uh, the pastor of our church doesn't like that saying, and I understand why, because I think what he's trying to do is defend against not sharing the gospel explicitly, which I.

Jeshua: 16:51

hmm.

Jason: 16:52

which we should never do. We're called to share the gospel explicitly as we're given opportunity. And as those, uh, those chances come to us and those conversations come to us. But I understand that saying I appreciate because it's about the 99% of the work that we do that, that you do, that I do. That's not explicitly verbally sharing the gospel with someone in our work, but it's just doing the work and it's doing it in a way that honors Christ and how we do that work.

Jeshua: 17:18

Yes. Yeah, that, that's true. That, that's interesting. And I can understand there's probably a def a there's, there's a lot more context there with, with what your pastor's concern would be. And I think that, for, for us, who are, are believers in in Christ, um. If we have received radical grace from God, if we know what we have been saved from, that really should change everything. Right? And I, I, I remember having a conversation with a friend and, um, it, it was along the line of there were some really good groups out there that are very evangelical in nature, that I'm a part of, that are that, that really focus on this We really need to share faith. We really need to do, and I am all for sharing the good news. Uh, um, he had a question to me about, you know, a neighbor and, and in interaction I had, I explained with a neighbor. His question to me was, well, does your neighbor do, do you think, do you think they know that you're a Christian? And my, my, my gut reaction is, well, of course he should. If, if I'm in a relationship with him, then the most important thing, That defines who I am is going to come

Jason: 18:30

Yes. Quickly. Very

Jeshua: 18:31

out with the things that Yes, very quickly, right? It, it comes because my, my, the things that I'm involved and the things that I'm passionate about, if you look at my calendar, hopefully the things that I am about reflect my desire to know Jesus and Heaven glorified in everything that I do. And so yes, it's, it's kind of this, both, both and type I, I completely get it, but. So I do want to get back to your question though. And um, uh, could you remind me again what, uh, I think,'cause I did a little bit of detour there. Remind me of the

Jason: 19:04

So how do you, uh, basically it's how do you honor Christ in the, in the work as a lawyer? Like your work as a lawyer, how do you like,'cause I'm, I work in manufacturing, right? And some people might think like, how do you honor the Lord and go in and making parts? And I can articulate that and I'm working on it, still sharpening that. But I wanna hear, how do you go in and honor Christ through the work that you do in your field?

Jeshua: 19:28

Yeah, there's a, there's a lot of different ways. Um, what's been, what's been helpful for me as well is, uh, is putting together this, I mean, everything, it, it's gotta start with it. Everything's gonna be an overflow, Of, uh, of, of what's being put into me. And what I mean by that is I've, um, I heard it, and again, I, I would misattribute this, so I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do justify to the quote, but it really stuck with me for the last 25 years of the, the only thing that I have to offer people, Is the fruit of my time with Jesus. That's the only thing that I have to offer is what's being put into me. And so I start, when I start my days, I start it with the Lord. And if I start with that and I keep at the center what's most important? What, so I I, I start the days and, and I've got, I do as of late, this is kind of a new thing that I've got my personal mission statement of of who I am, what I, and I look at it every day and well, well, what is for me today? It's, it's at number one is it's, it's Matthew, it's, it's. First seek his kingdom and his righteousness. That's, that's what I'm doing today. And so if I, if I go and I start my day, then hopefully every interaction that I have is intentional and it's, and it's spirit filled. And so, um, going into the office, going into work, getting my mindset of What's most important is my interactions with people. And so making sure that my interactions with first my team members is that it's intentional. It's not self-focused. it's not agenda oriented. It's about them and it's sh again, showing them the love of Christ and making them feel valued and loved. Um, same thing with In, in any type of interaction that I'm having with clients. Um, and then ba I guess, bathed with excellence. We're, we're required to be good stewards of what we have and, and, and perform excellence so that we are, we are doing everything well. Um, doing it as we're doing it unto the Lord.

Jason: 21:37

And I think that's so important. Uh, we talk about that a lot on this show, is everything that we do, doing it with excellence, because if we're not doing that, and when the time does come that we're able to share specific, you know. Uh, the gospel specifically, like get a chance to tell somebody about Christ and what he's done for us. If we're not working in a way that's honoring him with excellence and doing everything at the very best that we can, not only the what we do, but how we do it and how we interact with others and how we treat others and how we serve others. That's what I hear you saying is that you want to go in and serve your coworkers and serve your customers. And if we're not doing that, then You know, our, our testimony's really gonna be hurt and maybe destroyed even.

Jeshua: 22:21

I, I think that's a huge understatement. I think what you said is critical. You know, it's, it, it is,

Jason: 22:28

say you started to talk a little bit about your spiritual disciplines, uh, Jesuit. I always like to ask people that we interview about those. So can you talk a little bit more about what are the things that you have. In your life to ensure, you know, sanctification that you're growing, growing in your walk with the Lord.

Jeshua: 22:45

Yeah, a a couple of things. It, it has evolved over time. Um, but what what has been consistent is, uh, we have a busy house. We've,

Jason: 22:55

like it. You have had for about 10

Jeshua: 22:57

and yeah, life has been, bi life is full. It's good. It's, but when the day starts, it starts at a mile a minute. And so for me, I need to start the day before everyone in the house is awake. And so that's, that's when I start, it's when it's quiet and so that I have time to reflect and, and I have time to, to spend time with the Lord. I. Um, reading is critical. Reading, getting into his word. I, I have, um, other material that I typically go through. I am a huge, um, I, I just am, I'm a Tim Keller fan, and so I go through his work. It's talking about faith and work. Every good endeavor is one of my favorite books. I've read through it multiple times. Yeah, so I, yeah, I'm a huge plug for that if you know the whole faith and work conversation. But, um, so I start making sure that you have time, that I have time away, and then it's changed a lot over the years, but you've got to be known, you've got to be in community with others, meaningful community. And so, uh, really fighting for that. And it's changed over the years. It's changed from groups and so, but for right now, the season that I'm at is Um, really connecting with just a couple of people and making sure it's on the calendar, consistent people that have been in relationship for a while, that we're walking in the same direction. We have life circumstances that are similar, um, a bunch of kids and, and trying and owning a business, trying to run that. And so it's making sure that I'm being known. So that's, those are the regular disciplines, but all of that really only happens if you set, set aside time. And be intentional about it, and that that's always, always a

Jason: 24:35

And I think something else you mentioned that's important for maybe even younger parents and believers is that it will change over time. And that's okay. As long as, as long as you stay at it. And I've thought about this over the years. You know, our, our children, our oldest is 28, our youngest is 18, you know, and so I've been walking with the Lord since our oldest was born, so 28 years or so, and I think about how my spiritual disciplines have grown and but also changed and yeah, I think I. And, and there's been times in my life when it, uh, wasn't good and it kind of dried up. And I, I think the encouragement would be for people who go through those times is to, you know, to keep pushing back on that and be disciplined. And if you miss a few days or miss a few weeks, like, it doesn't mean that you give up. You go back and try it. And if the morning doesn't work, maybe the evening does. And if the evening doesn't work, maybe the morning does. And you know, those, their circumstances change over time. now we have a granddaughter actually that lives in our house. But just, just, just one, uh, we don't have a house full of little ones running around. And I know that's super challenging when you do have a lot of children at home, you know, especially for, uh, moms who are the caretakers. To try to find 10, 15, 20 minutes even of quiet time is challenging. But, uh, making sure you're working to carve that out is super, super important in your walk with the Lord. For sure.

Jeshua: 25:59

Yeah, and I think a good point that you raised. I mean, it give yourself grace. because grace, grace is the word. Um, we serve a gracious God.

Jason: 26:08

We do serve a gracious God, and I think that the trap of the enemy is to get us to a point where we want to give up. You know, we've, because we haven't done it, we haven't been faithful in something. And that's not, yeah, that's not our, that's not the Lord's way. He, his way is. Forgiveness and grace, and certainly repentance is part of that, but then that means work at it again. Go back at it again. For sure.

Jeshua: 26:32

Right.

Jason: 26:33

Hey, Jeshua, a different question along the line of leadership, again, when you were earlier in your kinda leadership journey, what was something that you struggled with and what have you done to overcome that? Or is it something that you've just had to manage that you still struggle with as you've gone further in that journey?

Jeshua: 26:51

Could. Good question. So, For, for me, it, I was put into, uh, leadership positions early, uh, particularly in, in nonprofit board leadership. And I would find myself so, you know, 15 years ago as a new board member, uh, for a nonprofit being surrounded with people that are 20, 30, 40 years My senior and that those types of, uh, of, of leadership positions, they did give me a little bit of imposter syndrome, a little bit of insecurity of I don't belong at this table. I'm, I'm, I'm too young. I don't, somebody else is better suited for that. I also, I, I think the, the, um, it was only about. Eight years ago. Eight years ago, when I served as board president of Mel Trodder Ministries, uh, one of the, uh, largest rescue missions in Michigan, and stepping up as a 34-year-old, uh, to be chairing this, this organization that's been around for over 120 years. The board members, um, many of all of them, my, my senior, a a lot of the same type of I don't have the experience of what it takes and, and, and that that was something that I had to face early on. it really, it really helped for me to realize it wasn't about me. I mean, that was part of it is I'm, I'm there to serve. I as a leader, we're there to serve. It's not about us even now. It's, it's, it's never, uh, about us. It's about the people I. That we serve. So within our business, it's our team and it's with our customers, but also in a nonprofit setting, if we're doing board service, board leadership, we're there to serve the stakeholders, the people, the guests that we serve. It's not about us. And I think that's probably, that's probably helped me. We're all learning. And just not to take myself too seriously.

Jason: 28:50

Yeah, no, that's good. That reminds me of, um, actually part of the sermon today at church. So Sunday, we're doing this interview on a Sunday and our pastor was, we're working through, uh, the book of Luke and I'm gonna paraphrase this loosely, I'm not looking it up, but essentially Jesus had sent out the, the 70 or 72 and then they came back. So we were just reading the name where they came back and they were super excited that they were like, even we had power even over the demons in your name. And he said, basically Jesus said. Uh, don't rejoice so much in that. Rejoice in the fact that your book is, your name is written in the, in the book of life. And you know, the pastor talked about how whether the ministry that God's called you to is going well or not going well. It's not you, it's not it, it isn't about you. To your point, Jeshua, is you go serve and be faithful. And he shared an example of a missionary, I think an early missionary to China who spent 10 years. Before he ever saw his first convert. And, you know, he said he was faithful. It wasn't successful or not successful, you know, he was quote unquote successful because he was walking in obedience to the Lord and what he called him to do, which meant, you know, uh, sowing seed on very, very hard soil. So, I, I liked the fact that you and I have served on nonprofit boards now for about, I guess, eight or nine years, and I appreciate that because Uh, as we've brought on younger people and they've had a lot of value to add, and I think I've had those conversations with some people that we've tried to recruit and they're like, no, it's, I, I'm not, you know, I'm not ready for that. And it's like, yeah, don't, don't let that get in the way if you're being asked, you know, and just for sure you should pray through it and, you know, get input from your spouse and other people you trust. But if those things were all directing you to go do that. Then the Lord will equip you to do that work. He is already equipping you to do that work. So that's really

Jeshua: 30:44

that's absolutely right.

Jason: 30:45

good.

Jeshua: 30:46

Yeah. So the word that I, that I think of there, and you mentioned it, it's, it's, we're, it's faithfulness. We're just called to be faithful. That's all. It's not about us.

Jason: 30:56

Hey, uh. different question, but about leadership high level. So if you look at the world around us, right? How, just look out and say, what, what do you think is biggest thing missing in leadership that's, that's having the most detrimental impact? And I'm talking, you look around business, politics, you know, what do you see as, as the thing that's missing, the, the thing that's missing, that's having the biggest impact? There's a lot that's missing, but.

Jeshua: 31:24

Wow. Yeah, there is a, there's an absolutely lot. Uh, and the word that that comes to mind, it kind of probably ties in a little bit to what we just talked about, but is humility. what is humility? Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's just thinking about yourself less. Right.

Jason: 31:40

that saying. Yeah.

Jeshua: 31:41

CS Lewis. Yeah. Mm-Hmm.

Jason: 31:44

Yeah.

Jeshua: 31:45

And I think we see that, we see a lot of, of self-interest and it's, uh, it. I think it's human nature, it's human tendency. It's we put these, whether we, whether it's selfish ambition that that got people to a leadership position or whether we had good intentions and we rose to that leadership position and we just think we're carrying the weight of the world on us. So it's about us. It's on us. If we just Think less about ourselves through this process. So more, some people don't like the term servant leadership, but servant leadership is what comes to mind. Humility.

Jason: 32:20

I had a supervisor years ago, um, used to walk, he would walk up to people. I, remember this just stood out so much and he would say, what can I do for you? And that's what he said that all the time, and he meant it. I was like, I've never, I've never had a supervisor walk up and say that, that's always about what can you do for me and what do you need to be doing right now? And this guy had that approach. And I've always I don't know. I've just always thought about that and tried to have that same approach with my, my team and say, what, what can I do for you? Right? What do you need for me? How can I serve? And it's, I know some leaders that will say that. How can I serve you? And I think that that's so powerful to say those words and to, and to mean it.

Jeshua: 32:59

So a couple of things about that. One, the fact that. That memory of how that your supervisor treated you was so impactful that not only do you remember it, but you model after it. It is, it's so counter-cultural, right. It's so impactful. But the second thing you said is to is to, is also to, to take that but also to mean it. And so to actually live that out. I think sometimes we get in this trap of you have companies With mission statements plastered all over, you've got Right. They, they know, they, they've read the books. They know what they're supposed to do. It's, it's, uh, you know, the, it's the mission that not is not only in the walls, but lived through the halls. As I I hear it's, is it actually lived out? And it has to be deep. It has to transformative.

Jason: 33:48

I think that organizations should not plaster that stuff everywhere. And the reason that I say that is it's if it's being lived out truly, and we're all human, so it's never perfect, but if, if the, if the top leadership team is living it out day to day, meeting by meeting decision by decision, it doesn't, it doesn't need to be plastered all over the walls. It just, yeah, it doesn't have to. And, and, and unfortunately too often when it is, it's not being lived out and it's all over the walls, but it's not, it's not being lived out. So that drives cynicism, frankly, with people. I think

Jeshua: 34:23

Yes. Yes. I, I agree. It's, it's, it's very easy to lose trust of, of your team, the people that you work. It's, it's hard to gain an easy to lose.

Jason: 34:33

Exactly. Destruction's always quicker than, uh, creation in my experience. who are some people that you follow authors. Podcasters websites. Like who do you, you, you said you read a lot, and that's, I think, I think leaders, uh, should be readers, uh, for another, like coin, another phrase there. But, uh, who do you, who do you follow? Who do you read? Who do you recommend?

Jeshua: 34:55

S uh, a a a lot and it's the breadth of kind of the areas that, that I am really focused on. So from, from a leadership standpoint, um, I'm a huge fan of, uh, of Craig Rochelle, particularly his, his leadership Pat podcast, uh, John Ma Maxwell. Not only his podcast, but his books.

Jason: 35:15

I love John Maxwell. Yeah. I came up on, he was the first leadership author I ever read. The 21 Year Refutable Laws of Leadership. Read that a long time ago.

Jeshua: 35:23

It is, it's in my, if I was in my office right now, it's hanging up in my office. That one particularly. Yeah. The, um, I, I mentioned a lot of Timothy Keller, uh. Yeah. Although he's a, he's a pastor, a lot of his truths are directed at leaders and he's, he does have some good leadership content. Um, another is, is John Gordon. Um, John Gordon's got some good leadership. I love Stephen. Uh, uh, Stephen Covey's, uh, seven Habits of Effective People. I, I, I read through that one. I think a good one. Um, you know, Jim Collins, good to Great. That's one that, uh, that again, those are these enduring principles of truths that, that, that you get through them. A couple of, uh, other authors that I read, and this is more in the entrepreneurial space, uh, there, the, um, Dan Sullivan and Benjamin Hardy have been reading through their books. 10 x is easier than two x and, uh, who not how. Those are some that, that I would recommend.

Jason: 36:20

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And I'll, uh, link to those in the, uh, In the podcast, and, uh, so people can check those out. Several of those I've read as well that were super impactful. John Maxwell, he gets mentioned, I'm gonna say 80% of the time when I have people on this show. And actually I had heard of

Jeshua: 36:35

He's the,

Jason: 36:36

he, he's like the guru, right? I mean, he's the guru. Yeah.

Jeshua: 36:38

Yes, that's right. Yes.

Jason: 36:41

uh, Greg, is it Greg or Craig Gro. Elle. He, I heard about him from, yeah, from one of my, from one of the people I interviewed and I've, I've listened to his, uh, leadership podcast ever since. It's very good. Very good. Yeah.

Jeshua: 36:53

Yeah. I guess the other one that comes to mind along those lines, just because his book was so instrumental, um, it's Kerry Newh. He has a leadership podcast. He's also a pastor. He wrote a, a book called At Your Best, that at a time in my life when, um, the work, the life balance was getting a little bit out of hand. It was those principles were really life giving to me. He's got great podcasts

Jason: 37:18

good. Check that out. Hey, what would you say to somebody who's moving into a leadership role for the first time? Like maybe they come to you, a friend from church, and uh, you know, they get their first opportunity and they want some advice from someone who's been doing it for a while. Je what advice would you give'em?

Jeshua: 37:36

Yeah, I, I think that it is the, the product of, um, surrounding yourself with the right people, so not only resources, I, I think that you can learn an, an immense. Amount of, of good principles from, you know, any of the work that you're familiar with that or that, that I just talked about, about leadership principles in either through podcasts or books, but I think it's also, mentorship is critical. So finding some people, um, at least one who's been there, who's at least 20 years out, that's walked through those and just clinging to them and, and in whatever time that they're, they're willing to give you on a regular basis. Uh, because we, we just, we need those people who have walked before ahead of us.

Jason: 38:23

I, uh, I can't, I can't agree more. I think about a couple guys who have helped me through my career and one, one of'em is retired and I still have called him on occasion when I had a big decision to make or You know, just get some advice from'em. And what's interesting is how willing, in my experience, that these people are to help, to help, to get on a call, you know, to spend some time with you. And, uh, yeah. I think too often we, uh, we neglect that at our peril, so, yeah.

Jeshua: 38:51

Oh, there's a lot there, Jason. Yeah, I think so too. I, it seems to me the people who, in my experience, who've had the most value to give, um, maybe I've been reluctant to reach out because of their, of their status or because they keep their right. It's, but when I have reached out, they have Made themselves available to impart wisdom into me. It is. It's, it's interesting how that works.

Jason: 39:16

Who, uh, who else would you like to see come on this podcast? I. Who do you know that's a a workplace leader, you know, who's been doing it for a while would have some words of wisdom? Who do you think.

Jeshua: 39:28

Wow. Yeah, there's a lot of different contexts there. Um. One. Uh, so one, one organization that uh, I have just become involved with over the last six months is called Faith-Driven Entrepreneurs, and it's a, it's a fascinating Christ-centered organization, uh, for, for. For business owners, entrepreneurs, people are entrepreneur and also investors, um, who might work with those types of businesses. And there's a couple of guys, even, even locally in Grand Rapids who I'm starting, um, this, uh, west Michigan chapter that might be great people to talk to. So that, that's kind of more locally. But then there are, there are others that offline I'd, I had, um, that, that I could think of that I would definitely want to

Jason: 40:15

Good.

Jeshua: 40:16

your

Jason: 40:16

No, I would love to do that. I'm always looking to, you know, find some people that can come and really, this is just all about Imparting wisdom and helping each other grow as leaders, you know, and, uh, just sharing ideas and maybe possibly networking and, uh, being able to be more effective in our work and ultimately honoring the Lord in that work and glorifying him. So, yeah. What's, uh, last question I have, I always ask everybody when they come on, when you are done with full-time work and you got a white, you got a ways to go. I don't think you're too close to retirement, but. Uh, you know, when the Lord moves you out of full-time, full-time work, what do you hope that people will have remembered about working with you?

Jeshua: 40:56

Yeah. It goes back to my principle, my, oh, my, my focus is they would look back and say, Jeshua loved God and he loved people, and, and, and truly understood that, that that's who I was.

Jason: 41:09

Yeah. Well, it's simple, but it's, uh, I love it. Love God and love others. Right? That's, uh, that's what Jesus said. It all boiled down to. was those two commandments. So, hey, what's the best way for people to get ahold of you? Je uh, if they wanna reach out. And I, and I can link that in the show notes too, but, uh, what's the easiest way?

Jeshua: 41:27

Um, a couple of ways come to mind. I mean, my email, email's the best way to communicate my first name, Jeshua dw law pc.com. I don't really have other private emails. That's just what I use. And, uh, the, the best way to connect with me, I'm very active on LinkedIn and so connecting with me on LinkedIn, I found it to be a great way to engage, um, with content that's good content to learn, but also to connect in meaningful ways like we are here, Jason.

Jason: 41:56

Yeah. No, I appreciate, I liked following you on LinkedIn. You are very active on there and I think have some, uh, some great posts. So I, that's how I found you. So It is been good. So we'll link to that on the show notes. Um, yeah, other than that man, I appreciate your time. It's been great hearing about your testimony and this is the first time I've had someone on here who works in your industry and field, so that's always good. I like to have a broad range of, uh, people down to interview. So thank you for your time, man. I know you got a family and, uh, giving me an hour of your time, uh, that means a lot, so I appreciate it brother.

Jeshua: 42:28

Yeah, very, very glad to. And, um, like I said, uh, it's always good to connect particularly with, uh, with, uh, people who are looking to follow after Jesus and how to live it out in everything that we do. So Jason, really good to connect.

Jason: 42:44

brother.. And thank you for joining me again this month as we meet another leader striving to honor Christ in their work. Please check out our new YouTube channel where you can watch the interviews and comment on the content. I look forward to hearing back from you and being back again next month.?