Leonard McElveen President at Pivot Paradigm

Leonard McElveen has over 40 years of leadership experience, mostly focused in leading homeless missions in Michigan and Colorado. Listen in and hear about his incredible conversion as a drug dealer to a faithful follower of Christ.

Leonards offers a ton of excellent leaders advice along with much biblical wisdom for all Believers.

Leonards FaceBook
Leonards LinkedIn
Mel Trotter ministry
Book - The Great Divorce
Book - An Ethic for Christians and Other Aliens in a Strange Land 

Transcript

  📍    Welcome to the biblical leadership at work podcast. I'm your host, Jason Woodard. My guest today is Leonard McElveen and I love his motto. He instills in new leaders. It's not about you, boo. Leonard has spent 40 years in nonprofit ministry, leading organizations like Mel Trotter in grand rapids, Michigan, where he spent 32 years. Leonard offers a ton of insightful leadership advice in the interview today. For example, he talks about the importance of learning and having people in your life who will give you feedback and especially difficult feedback. 

He said, but You'll never be a great leader until you make other people good at what

they do.  

We also talk about the importance of admitting when you don't know the answer and not pretending to always know what to do, especially as a leader. 

people sit in meetings and act like they know what they're talking about when in fact they really don't know what they're talking about.

And I used to say to people all the time that I don't know is not a bad thing. that's what I would say to a new person.

Be more focused on learning than knowing.

And when I asked Leonard his advice on how we should approach people who are struggling with addiction and or homelessness. He gave some very heartfelt, biblical words of wisdom based on a half a lifetime of serving these people, 

When we judge people, we see them on the side of the road, or we see them in a box, or we see them wherever they're at. There is more to this story.

And I think that God actually wants us to be a wisdom participant in what might be a long term story, a long term, long term solution to a person's story. But I need to be something in that person's life today that is part of a big sentence or a big paragraph or a big book that God is actually writing on this person. 📍   

Okay. Well, Leonard McElveen, brother, I appreciate you joining me today for podcast, man. I look forward to, uh, to hearing your story and having the audience get to know you.



Yeah, it's a privilege to be with you. opportunity you know, share with people. And, uh, you know, I've been in ministry for a long, long time. So I'm, I'm always grateful for any opportunity to share some of my experiences that might help 



Well, so let's start off, Leonard, let's start off, uh, tell us a little bit about your, career background. and you know, where the Lord's taking you professionally know, your leadership experience. I know you have a lot of, a lot of years leading people. So share us a little bit about, about your professional background.



Well, my professional background is I've been in ministry for a little over 40 years. I spent 32 my last years in ministry at Mel Trotter Ministries, which is a organization that helps to end homelessness, and working with people and also, you know, doing recovery and helping people with jobs and helping people to deal with traumas and  things.

So we have a huge staff there.  Part of my job was an executive leader over the years was to help lead the organization in the best way that we could help move forward. And at the same time, you know, how do we continue to grow the ministry based on the needs that exist within the community and then how communicate those things in such a way that we garner support community that we were in.

I did a lot of development work.  Was the spokesman for the organization for many, many years. I was the guy that, you know, created programs and said, Hey, I think we need to try this. I was the guy that, in the early years that I was there, that had to go to our board and say, Hey, I think we should go in this direction.

And they'd say to me, well, then you need to raise some money for it. If you, if you think that this is what we need to do. So, you know, I was there when the organization, you know, was a lot smaller than it is today and was just privileged be able to participate with this growth. I also spent a few years in Denver running the downtown mission for the Denver rescue mission and then I've had, , three different churches here in town that I've actually pastored. 

So I've had a lot of years of, of leading made a lot of mistakes and learned a lot of things the hard way. And, and you, you know, and along the way, if you keep, if you keep batting at the plate, you know, you get a few hits from time to that's just going to happen if you stay in the game and you keep trying and you keep trying to learn from, you know, your mistakes and also talking to others.

trying to find out what they do, uh, what they did that they don't do anymore. That was one of the first things I did when I got into leadership, because I didn't have a clue what I was doing. And I said, I'll only take this job if I can go around the country and talk to a whole lot of other people that are doing this.

And I want to learn what they thought was a good idea that they've now discovered wasn't as great an idea as they thought it was at the time. And, uh, once I did that, I came back and tried to formulate a plan for leading us forward with, uh, with the team.

Well, I think that's a very wise approach. That's one of the reasons that I started this podcast was to learn from leaders who have been doing, been leading for decades and made mistakes and can share what's worked, what's not worked. And, uh, so that's, there's a lot of wisdom in that, you know, asking for that advice and input and counseling.

How did you, Leonard, how, How did you first get into leading,  uh, those gospel missions? I mean, what, what, what steps did God take you through to get into that? Was it that Denver was the first one or Meltrater? 

Mel Trotter was the first, then Denver, so I resigned at Mel Trotter after eight years, went to Denver, then I came back to Mel

Okay.

So that's how it all worked out. but what got me, I think that to understand my story, You have to understand my childhood. have to understand, how God had his hand on me when I actually thought that,  I wasn't even sure if there was a God and I didn't, I wasn't even sure if anybody cared about me.

You know, my mother had me when she was 17 years old. She wasn't ready to have a baby. She had no, you know, wherewithal and then five months after I was born. You know, my grandmother, who we were all living mom's, mom  died. And so the family dispersed and split. And, my mom went to New York City,  try to, make a life for herself. and when she got there, she left me with her mother's sister, which was my great aunt. And the sad thing was, is that they wanted a child, but they did not want a child. They didn't have any children. So I ended up living with her. And so it was, it was really a tough,  traumatic, uh, life existence.

But I had this thing that, that today I look back on. I know it was a gift from God. It was, I think that God had his hands on me from the very  from before my birth and, uh, and when I was, uh, in that household, you know, we would go to town on Saturday and they would give me a nickel, this is back in the,  you know, 60s, 1960, you know, and I'd turn that into like four or five bucks, you know, cause I'd sang on the streets,  and made money, And, then  few years later, you know, I started a baseball team and I got one of my uncles to actually lend us his truck and, and he would make the phone calls and get the teams and I would find the guys to play and, you know, we'd get some money for the gloves and the baseballs and the bats, you know, and,  And, um, and that has always been my nature, even to my detriment. was in high school, I did a very similar thing in the fact that I was the captain of my baseball team. I was one of the guys that helped, you know, to put the basketball team together and make sure that we could compete. And then I played on the football team. And then my, one of my uncles, which was my mother's brother, you know, became a big time drug dealer on the East Coast.

And I got into the drug trade, working for him.  And, uh, that actually ultimately led me to actually thinking that I was the king of the world, and that nothing could touch me, and that I was kind of like a little god. And, uh, and that led me to an overdose where I died and went to hell ask God to save he brought me back to earth, which is how I got started in this game. A guy invited me to a little church, you know, in Syracuse, New York. And I went there and the pastor was talking to me and seemed to be talking about the experience that I had had. and I went forward and gave my life to Jesus.

And that's what kind of got me started with the ability to say, you know what, I'm willing to step away from the crowd, do what's right and lead other people in doing that too. And so I took my faith very radically and very seriously. And then I started Bible studies you know, one thing led to another and then before.

was in seminary so when I got out, you know, okay, my first thought was what am I going to do to lead,

that's how I ended up here in Michigan. I came here to work for the state of Michigan, you know, in the prison system. And then I met a guy who at the time was just about to do a sabbatical at Mel Trotter.

And he invited me down, asked me to pray about  coming in and helping out because he says I'm here, but I have no clue what And so this was in  uh, that's how I got started in the ministry.

 you were, I'm guessing, a teenager or in your early 20s when you were still in the drug trade and dealing drugs. What kind of age were you when you 

I started.  I was 18.  Yeah.



All of those experiences, even the ones that were negative, I believe that God had his hand on me and was actually preparing me and planning the rest of my days of leading, even from pastoring and everything else. I think that I didn't know that I was ignorant to it.

but I think God knew it. And you know, as I Have gone through my life. I realized that every experience that I had was a step. It was a step that God actually turned to be something that could be used for It was a gift. So I see my entire existence as a gift I can't say, Oh, I was so like this.

So that's why I did that. I think God gifted me and the circumstances forced it 

Yeah, and he  even used as you said all of those Terrible things that happened and things that you went through that were a bad experience and bad decisions And I you know, I've experienced some similar things in my life where those bad decisions led to certain consequences that then led me closer to the Lord and you see his hand a protection on you as a young man and bringing you Through all of that and not not into the grave.

Thank God because he had a plan for you still all along that time.

Exactly. Exactly. And that's that to me, that is grace 

you know? And so when I'm preaching to people, even today, and I'm still doing a lot of public speaking, when I'm preaching to people or teaching or doing a devotion or whatever it is, I try to speak to that part of myself that always was not quite sure.

You know what I'm saying?  Because all of us have that part where we're sure about some things, but then there's some other things we're not so sure about because all the puzzle hasn't come

together yet for us. You know, it will one day, but right now it's not all

together. You know, and so I try to, I try to reach into that part of myself.

You know, and say, okay, there's a part of me that's probably connected to the same humanity that's inside of you. And I know God has a plan for you too, because He had a plan for me even when I didn't know He had a plan for me, you know.

Yeah. So, brother, I want to ask you and all of your years of leading you've You're a learner, you wanted to learn what other people were doing well, you spent decades leading people. What is by now something that you would say is a key principle of leadership for you when it boils down to like a really important principle or even motto that you have when you approach leadership?



Yeah, I think that, well, I kind of break it down to a little two tier. I think the first thing is you need to learn everything that you can, you know. You definitely need to, you know, have your, your mind and your world, you know,  color of your world, the scent of your world has to be the kingdom of God.

It has to be from what you get from the word based on how God says that things are and not necessarily just  you might find things with your senses. That's number one. Number  two, You  to, once you get knowledge, that's a beautiful thing, but knowledge is not everything. Knowledge is a wonderful thing, but it's not everything.

It is a piece. It is a tool. But you cannot, you cannot lose curiosity.   is, I wonder why. And when we're all children, we have tremendous curiosity. If a leader is not curious, Then at some point, they come to a final spot, and then they try to make everything and everyone fit into that spot in which they're in.

They're not allowing themselves to grow. I see this happen. I've seen it happen before. And once you decide that there is not that much more to learn And you're not willing to be curious and move out from the pack, you know, from the early days. I had to move out from that old life that I had. I had to  goodbye to that.

And then take a chance on trying to find something else, even though I didn't know what something else looks like. And I think God is inviting each one of us to that every single day. And a leader needs to be a person that goes out first. Don't ask other people to, don't ask other people to do it if you're not  okay?

So don't ask other people, you know, to really be searching, okay, and to be curious. If you're not curious, you know, if you have  cognitive bias and what you know is all there is to know. Listen, what you know is wonderful. That's a gift from But God also wants to give you more. And I believe, that even when we get to Heaven, we're still learning more every single day, forever and ever and ever and ever.

Because God is never finished with us. He wants to give us more of Himself, more of Himself, more of Himself, forever and ever and ever. So we have to have that attitude today. And if I don't go out early in the morning,  23rd Psalm. The Lord is my shepherd. If I don't go out like the shepherd and find out where the water spots are, find out where the resting spots are, find out where the dangerous spots are, how can I lead other people 

And how can I make them those kind of leaders for the people that they're leading?

that's good. So, do you talk about, spiritual growth and continuing on that? What are your spiritual disciplines, Leonard? Like, what do you do to continue to grow closer to the Lord personally?



Well, I stay in the word, number one. I think that's critical. But I also think that in addition to staying in the word, I mean, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I'm really into that, especially nowadays. The old days, we had to read everything. Now we got the internet and, and, and, you know, podcasts. You know, on phones and YouTube and all of that, I love listening to sermons, especially by certain people who are going to challenge me and challenge me to think maybe in some different ways.

You know, I love doing those things, but I think all of that is not enough. I think the things that the disciplines that we do, we have to ask ourselves, what is it leading me to?  And I am a big proponent today of meditation. And when I say meditation, I'm not talking about some crazy eastern thing or something like that.

I'm simply talking about the way that your mind automatically goes in certain directions. So when you see something, what is the lens in which it is colored?  That is the way that your mind is working when you don't even know that your mind is working that way subconsciously. And I believe that, especially as believers, our minds need to be clouded with God's kingdom.

God's will God's word so that we can distinguish the things that are coming at us, especially, you know, the politics that's coming at us, especially the, you know, the, the material things that are coming at us, especially the way it is today, that's coming at us, you know, the way it was yesterday, all those things, those are things that definitely.

It's good to have some knowledge on, but you have to have something that kind of separates you from that, and I call that meditation. Meditation is the way that you are if you simply sit and think. Do you think in terms of God and His will and His purposes? Do you hear God saying that you should love one another?

Uh, you know, uh, do you hear divisive thoughts and all those kinds of things? And I, I don't think any of this is easy,  but I do think it's a goal that we should be working toward. We should meditate on his word night and day. And it's got, and I got to get into it until gets into   

Yeah. I like that. I like that. It reminds me of a verse in Romans, uh, 12 to says, do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then, then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is his good, pleasing and perfect will. So it's, yeah, it's that renewing our mind through scripture, through meditating on his word.

Reading it, listening to it. I love that man. That's 

Yeah. Exactly. And, and when we're doing, when we're being transformed, we're not just transacting. So it's not that I'm doing a transaction with you, God, therefore you got to get to do a transaction with me. Transformation is a whole different process. And quite frankly, that's what everybody's looking for is transformation.

The problem is, is that we're doing transactions.

that's good. No that I like that. That's that's super important. I think point that yeah, it's not just a transaction is if I do this, God will do this good thing for me. And then because then really what you're Really, worshiping is yourself. You're only doing it because of what you'll get out 

That's right? 



Yeah, you're not, you, you're not desiring to be transformed into the image of Christ and to die to yourself, which is what scripture tells us, to die to ourself every day.



And do a walk in obedience to him. Ah, that's 

That's right.



Hey, another leadership question for you, Leonard. When you think back to when you were a young leader, what was something that you struggled with, that maybe, you know, another leader listening to this is struggling with?



And, what did you do to overcome it? Or, you know, do you still have to kind of manage it? You know, think back to some challenges early on in your leadership journey.



Yeah, I'll tell you one of the biggest ones that I had. So when I, when I started out and especially because I was not doing something brand new, you know, I am connoisseur of information, you know, I love discovery. you know, when, when, when I got into the word of God and started discovering things about God and people and, you know, the world that we live in and, and, and a whole bunch of stuff, you know, I, I became this enthusiastic discovery person.

So when I got into leadership, you know, I still had that same spirit of discovery. What happened is I got a bunch of knowledge and information and I was able to lead, but I wasn't a great leader Because I was the type of person that if you didn't have that spirit of discovery and if you weren't that desirous You know and when you're even leading in Christian ministry sometime, you know, sometimes people are just  They're just trying to get from point A to point B, you know, they're not You know, and I get that, I get that.

They don't have that same enthusiasm, you know, and and for me, you know I always wanted to be the very best at anything that I attempted to do, you know I had that from my low, low self esteem, you know through my childhood That's why I always tried to perfect

Yep. A hundred 

And so I think I brought that into my leadership And at some point, you know, you got to surround yourself with other people and people that you confide in and people that will actually tell you the truth and you blow your top, you know, and, and so I had a friend that started helping me down at, at, at Mel Trotter.

He was a, uh, a dentist who was kind of away from his job for a while. He came down and helped me start  rehab program. And, um, and so he and I were, we're buddies. You know, we went a lot of places together. Our families knew each other. We did stuff away from work. And so he came into my office one day and he says, you know, you're just amazing at every single do. 



I said, well, thank you. He said, but You'll never be a great leader until you make other people good at what

they do. 

 Amen.  Yeah.



but that, that made me think,  you know. And he says at some point you're going to have to start developing other people.  Even if they can't do it the way that you You're gonna have to change your perspective, and you can't just do it all. If you try, if you keep trying to do it all, you become, you know, Paul Bunyan, you know. You become the guy who, you know, is better than the machine on the railroad, but eventually runs out of gas, you know. And I realized that there was a lot of truth in what he was saying, and that somehow I needed to change my focus.

So I would say,  You know, coming out of the gate, that was probably one of the biggest mistakes that I made. That is, I'm going to change this if nobody helps And I think that as a leader, you have to come in and say, Okay, I have people, all people, including myself, have weaknesses. How can I, how can I  address and help them with their weaknesses.

How can I inspire them? How can I sell a vision to them? You know, how can I grow them even if it's a slower process than I would like to do? And I wish that I had known that from the very beginning because sometimes in leadership we don't, we don't intend to do it, but after a while You start getting compliments and praises from people, and everybody likes what you're doing.

Maybe some people don't like what you're doing, but even all of that, you can become extremely self centered 

that's 

And I would rec I would recommend any young leader to be careful of that. Develop the people around you, even if they can never be you.

Yeah. Well, and it's it, you know, as we move into a leadership role, it's not us doing it anymore. You know, it's leaders only get things done through others really through a team of people. And it's really 

ex exactly.

Your friend, uh, your mentor, that's another key point.  I know that wasn't your main point, but the other, I think important point for young leaders and not so young leaders like you and I to remember is to have those people around you who will speak the truth and love.

And it reminds me of, 

uh, A verse in Proverbs, this is Proverbs 27 6, and it says that faithful are the wounds of a friend, profuse are the kisses of an enemy. You know, so to have somebody who comes and has that word for you that is a painful but truthful and love and sound 

yeah, that yeah,

truly a friend.

allow, that you can allow to speak into your life. You have to have some perspectives around you from people who are not you,

Yeah, that's 

you know, and then you gotta open up yourself enough to be vulnerable to allow them to look into the situation,  you

know.  

Hey, Leonard, keeping on the topic with leadership. When you look around the world. And in general, you know, just people that you're, maybe you interact with or, you know,  people that you don't interact with, but you watch on the world stage. What do you think's the biggest gap in leadership that has the biggest detriment  in our world right now?

I would say for me, the one thing that I, I have noticed, uh, I think it's a battle. I think it's a battle that every leader goes through is that I think that you have two things. You have leaders that are extremely grounded spiritually and want to do what's best for I think that most leaders   generally have some of that in them to varying degrees.

But I also think that there is this issue of, capitalism, and I'm not downing Catholic capitalism because I live in a country that's capitalistic. I actually think it's a good thing, but I think that there's an issue of, what's best for trying to raise the money or trying to get grants or whatever it is that we're going to do to.

You know, to, to fund this thing, you know, even a pastor of a church, you know, they, they have to fund everything that they're doing. And if they want to do some new things, they got funded some kind of way. And I think that the danger and the difficulty for all of us in leadership, I'm not saying I didn't struggle with this  is that how do  do what's best for the people? And at the same time, keep the money coming in without going all the way over by to how do we do what's best for the bringing the capitalistic. And sometimes that goes into politics. And sometimes that goes into power. Sometimes that goes into wealth. And how can we turn this this way? And if we did this, what would the donors Say about this?

I think it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a very difficult balance for leaders and I've seen people go, you know, from one side to another. I've actually seen people go so far over on the spiritual side that the organization dies.

And then I've seen people go so. No money's coming in at all. And then they're saying stuff like, well, God will bring it in.

Well, God feeds the birds, but the birds have to go get it, you

know? So, and then I've seen people who've come into leadership today that don't have that grounded spiritual, but they're good leaders when it comes to. You know, development and podcasting and getting to know people and

all those kinds of things and organization.

Yeah. And organizations can suffer if that balance is not there.



Yeah somebody who's so I've always worked in for profit professionally, but I've served and continue to serve on nonprofit boards and That's that's true. That's a it's a struggle of you know, how do you make sure because the nonprofits I've served on our Christ centered You know, they're they're Christian ministries That need money, you know, you still, and, and including my own church, I serve as an elder and, you know, there's a component there of, especially in the nonprofit, uh, parish, parachurch organizations, you have to have some fund development and you don't want it to become the focus of the ministry, but you also for programs and paying the bills and things, you'd have to be able to do that.

So yeah, that's a, that's a 

Yeah. 

Balance. Hey, I have an, I have another question that's. It's a, it's an unscripted question here, but I really want to get your insight on this.  Is, is your, you know, talking to an audience of workplace believers, um, you know, your background with working with people who have come out of substance abuse, um, and, and, and maybe homelessness, like that's something that God's been working in my heart over the last nine or 10 months in some ways, and I won't share all the details on that, but I, I would like for you, Leonard, talk a little bit about what advice would you have for those of us who,  you know, we're going about our lives, we're serving in our churches, we have jobs, we have homes, and we're, you know, we drive by, you know, people on the sides of the street, um, who don't, and, you know, we tend to get sometimes, I think, a, um,  a, know, a jaded view, and in some cases, those people are out there  You know, pulling a scam and sometimes they're not, or we have ministries in our cities and we have one here in Battle Creek.

That's a, it's a gospel centered homeless shelter. Um, that we couldn't participate in support, be a part of, but I'd like for you to speak a little bit to the, you know, those that are, that are listening to this podcast from someone who spent decades in those ministries and challenge, I guess, or give words of wisdom on how we should look at.

Um, those opportunities or though, I would even say those, those folks that we drive by that are, you know, they're, they're homeless and they're, um,  you know, they're out there struggling what would your advice wisdom on that how to 

Well, my, my advice would be, you know, Proverbs 4 says that, you know, we should look for wisdom in everything that we do.  If, if you're just looking, you know, with your mind. With your eyes, this is a confusing and can be a very conflicting subject. And a lot of it will depend on how you were raised, how you were formed, you know, who the people were that actually poured into you before you could pour into yourself because you know, your formation.

It's actually a part of the way that you think what you want to do is kind of enhance that you don't lose all of that But you kind of alter that a little bit when you get when you start walking with God So that the kingdom of God formation and is now having more and more Influence on just the formation that you picked up from your parents and your family and your friends, and your race and your society and your culture and all of those things.

I think all of those things play into the way that we see someone and the reason why we're suspicious. Wisdom for me. Let me give you my definition of wisdom.  You might not hear this any place else, but I think it means that we don't look at things in isolation. Isolation is what traps people into wherever they They're looking at everything in isolation and they're making every decision about their lives in an isolated way.  The fool says there is no God because he only sees what's right around him. That's an isolated thought. That's a view. When we look at someone, whether they're holding a sign on the street, or whether they're in a domestic violence situation, or whether they've gone through some sort of trauma, we tend to look at it from an isolated perspective.

When we look at it from an isolated perspective, it's   never going to make complete sense. A part of it just simply does not make sense to us. I say that we should approach every situation and ask God for wisdom. Wisdom for me, the definition of wisdom is that all things are connected together. Nothing's in isolation.

So this life and this snapshot  Or this 10 minute video that we're watching or 10 minute with our eyes looking at someone It's not just

that but this is connected to that to that to that to that all those things that happened before That's what got that person there.  And then all these all the things that they do in this moment Leads to what they're going to do in the next moment, leads to what they're going to do in the next moment, leads to what they're going to do in the next moment.

So I cannot approach you with curiosity. That's why I say curiosity is the biggest thing. I have to approach you with curiosity and say, I wonder how you got in this hole. I wonder what

Because if I just look at you from my formation. You know, where my father said to me, a man has a job and I believe you should have a job, but I don't know all the things that has actually led to this person doing this and even a person that's out there scamming or doing something for the wrong reason.

There is really a connective story that actually got there and if I can't go into that connective story.  And speak to that person from inside of that story. I mean, that's what God does for each one of us. You know, if I can't do that, then I can't help this person because I just became an isolationist judge.

I saw one thing that you did, and now I have judged your entire existence. And that never works. It's never successful. I've had people that have reported to me that saw everything isolated like that. It never lasts in the long term because if I can't be curious about you and get to know you and get to a point where you can, you trust me to actually share your story, then we can't even begin.

I want to tell you, can I tell you a story?

yeah, yeah, 

I'm going to tell you a story, something that happened to early on. So we had a guy, young white guy that, would come into the ministry. I'm guessing he was around early twenties and at that time when I, when I came into the ministry, like all the other people were older, you know, so I was a young guy on the street and older people for whatever reason, you know, I'm not saying they were bad, but they didn't like young people.

Okay, so a young person comes in with all that energy and all that I don't understand why people are like this today and the world is going to hell and all this other kind of stuff and they would like throw him out, you know, and I'd be like, okay, all right, so you got thrown out. So, okay,  so then we'll bring you back in.

So I did that six times, know, he'd get in and then he would give them a legitimate reason sooner or later to throw him out again. And I'd say, okay, tell me what happened. You know, I'm trying to build a relationship with this guy. I'm trying to find out more about him. So finally, after this had happened six times, I brought him in the seventh And when I brought him in, I don't know how long he was there. It was a long time But I get a call to my office and says, he's upstairs and he's throwing glass. You know, he's in a private room. He's throwing glass against the wall. Should we call the police and I'm like, we're not calling the cops.

Okay. I mean, I ran the streets, man. Okay. So I'm not calling the cops. We can solve

this. 

Okay. 



can handle this. That was part of my issue. You know, I thought I could handle everything. So, I    upstairs, you know, and I'm like, Okay.  what's going on? You know, and he's like, know, yelling and screaming.

I said, well, I'm coming in. Don't throw anything at the door and I opened the door and I walked in the room and I walked through all the glass that was on the floor and I sat down by him on the bed. He was sitting  and I didn't say anything.  See, that's hard.  I didn't say anything. You know why I didn't say anything?

Yeah.  I didn't know what to say.

I thought, you know what? I'm just going to be with him.



 We're going to be here together in silence. And I sat there with him for about 10 minutes. Neither one of us said anything. And then he started crying  and he cried and cried. And then he started telling me a story. He spent about 15, 20 minutes telling me his life story.



And when he told me his story,  my thought was,  I'm   I'm amazed that this guy made it this far in This has got to be the hand of God.

Yeah. Like he, he should be dead by now.



He should be dead. So I said to him, I mean, he had all kinds of abuse, all kinds of abuse in his family. He'd been sexually abused and beaten, all kinds of stuff.

And he, I said to him, I said, listen, I'm not throwing you out, but I do need you to clean this glass up. Two weeks later, he got saved.

Oh man. Praise the Lord.



I can't explain that any more than I can explain the other stuff.

But I know this, everyone  is created in the image of  Everyone is actually searching for home.  But we have, we have a lot of different things that we're doing as a substitute for home because that's all we know. That's all we know to do.

We don't know what else to do.  We're just reacting, reacting, reacting. And, uh, and, and, and, and, and I think that he was absolutely blown away by my, not reaction, but a response. See, I think reaction is one thing that we do as people, but what a leader needs to do is not just  react. But we need to develop a response because there's more.



Then what I know to this story, there is more to this story than just what I know in this moment. And I think that when we judge, and I've done it, okay, I have done it.

When we judge people, we see them on the side of the road, or we see them in a box, or we see them wherever they're at. There is more to this story.

And I think that God actually wants us to be a wisdom participant in what might be a long term story, a long term, long term solution to a person's story. But I need to be something in that person's life today that is part of a big sentence or a big paragraph or a big book that God is actually writing on this person.



That's good, it makes me think about you know, I think one of the most Abused verses in the Bible are when Jesus said judge not right and so people take that and say well You can't judge anything anybody anytime and that's not scripture if you read All of scripture.  We're told at times to judge with wisdom, to judge rightly in certain situations.

And there's false teachers, we're told to judge, and we're told to be mindful of that. But I think when he said, judge not, that's the type of judgment he's saying to not do. What you're talking about here is to go into a 

Right. 

with a lack, a lack of context, a lack of grace, a lack of understanding, and then judge.

And that's, we do, I do, you're right, you go by and you're 

Right. 

that person's out 

And then, and then when you see, yeah, yeah. And then when you see that, you got to say to yourself, something awful must have happened for this to get here.



yeah, 



How can I, how can I be a part of    Transforming    that story. What is God up to in that person's life? Because even when I was out there on the street, God was up to something, but most people wrote me off

absolutely, yeah,

and most people didn't talk to me and they definitely didn't talk to me about God. They told me I was a horrible person.

They talked behind my back, but God was writing a story. And then finally, you know, somebody had the courage to come to me. and say, you know what? I've been praying for you.

Yeah. You're like, 

And I was like, really? You actually care about me? 

 awesome, man. That's inspiring, brother. I appreciate that. you talked earlier about continuing to learn and you know, you're passionate about podcasts. One of the things I always want to be sure to do is to get from. Um, I guess, who are some authors that you follow?

Who are some podcasts that you listen to? What are some recommendations? And I'll put those in the show notes, but, who are some of your favorites that you, uh, recommend? 



some of my favorites. you know, I love John Maxwell.  I think he does a tremendous job with one aspect of leadership. I actually love the preaching of Andy Stanley. I know he's controversial in certain ways, but I like the challenges that he gives and I kind of like his perspective. I do a lot of, listen to a lot of sermons.

We have a guy that at the church where I'm at right now, I think Bradley Neimers, he's, he's top notch when it comes to You know, preaching the word in such a way for people who might be confused, you know, we have a church that where people have gathered together questioned their faith or might have walked away and now we're trying to but one of the things that I want to share with you that has been super, super influential on me, I've read.  A lot of writers over the years. I mean, I was voracious readers, a reader, especially in my early years.  all of the C. S. Lewis stuff, you know. you know, The Great Divorce, probably one of the best books I've ever read in my lifetime.

Uh, but I've read, uh, I don't know if you've ever heard of this guy. This would be something good for the audience to check out. There is a writer.  Theologian who became a lawyer who practiced in Harlem in the 1960s and his name was William Stringfellow  and he wrote a book called Ethics for Christians and Other Aliens in Strange Land  A lot of things have had influence on me, but that had a huge influence on in the way that I see the kingdoms of this the principalities and powers of this world, and the kingdoms this world. the way finance works and the the way, you know, countries work and all of that.

And then the kingdom of God, you know, and how we are too. You know how we are to take our place in that kind of like John 17 where Jesus prays He says I pray that you will not be Of the world, but i'm going to leave you in

the world. So how do I balance that? I'm in the world. And being in the world, obviously there's participation in the world.

You know, I mean, I, I have to pay taxes and I have to raise my family and I gotta have a home  a way of, you know, ga uh, having, getting money, employment, you know, so there's a lot of ways, and I, I have to be a part of a community and, you know, I need to be a part of a church and, you know. But he, that gave me kind of a real strong, you know, mental foundation from the inside of the fact that, God's kingdom is different from all the

other kingdoms that exist.

You know, these kingdoms, they come and they go. But as Daniel said I saw a stone that was carved out of a mountain with no hands. You know, and it got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger until it filled the world. That's the kingdom that we're in. And I can't, in my leadership, forget that.

I need to remember that all the time. Even though that there are other things that have to be done, but those things need to be colored, flavored, and it should have an aroma, know, of that

Yeah, advancing, advancing God's kingdom. I'm going to get that book. I'm going to read it scripture and Jesus himself talked a lot about the kingdom of God. And so I think sometimes it's a ambiguous term for believers, like, you know, to really think about what that is. So if there's a book that really speaks to that and helps us to understand that, that's good.

And I'll post a link to that in the show notes. I'll have to, I gotta say Andy Stanley's a brilliant orator, but man, I have been. I've been not in agreement with some of his theological directions as of late, but he's, I mean, I've heard him speak on leadership topics and he's got a lot of wisdom there, but yeah, he is, uh, he's controversial for

and I'll tell you this. Yeah, I get it. And I tell the, and I, I understand that because, you know, we did some things, you know, when I was in ministry that wasn't that popular either. But sometimes you're so stuck with so many problems.  That you're you're like, okay, what, what can we do? What can we do? I'll give an example, you know, um, when I was in ministry, you know, we would have people who would call in to their, their homeless  and they would call in, you know, at our front desk, you know, or whoever was answering the phone at night for help.

And we would have people say, we don't take people like that here. Okay, so you start doing that over and over and over and you start getting complaints, complaints, complaints. Now you gotta ask yourself, why don't we take people like that? Well, because we don't believe in that. And I'm like, okay, yeah, but I don't need you to believe in

that. 

Yep.



But I need you to be compassionate. This person is beaten, stripped, and robbed on the side of the highway. I don't need you to be compassionate. I mean, I don't need you to be To believe that they are supposed to be like that. I don't believe in a person being a drug addict either.

But we take 

That's right. 

know, I don't believe in a person being an alcoholic either, but we take them.

I don't believe in a person being in a toxic relationship and being addicted to it, but we take

those people. It's not about a belief system, but for some of us Christians, it's very, very hard to do anything that does not fit with what we believe in. And so I had to, you know, sit down with our entire staff and said, listen, I'm not asking you to change your beliefs. 

I don't want you to do that. But I don't, I do want you to love people who are not like you.

yeah, yeah, because they're made in the image of God. So that way they are like us, right? 

this might be the first time they ever see love or what it looks like.

That's right

That's 

This, this might be, this might be the only time.  So this is not about, okay, you have to go change before I can

accept you. Wait a minute.

Hold it now.  No, no, I'm, I'm calling in the middle of the night, or in the middle of the day, and I don't have anywhere to go, and you guys won't take me because of your beliefs. Well, that's a problem.

a problem. 

That, that's a problem. And I, and I, and I don't want Christian people to change their beliefs. But I do want you to be compassionate.

Yep. 

Because Jesus even says that we should love our enemies.

Yep. That's right That's right. Well, we take them, 

So if we're going to look,

yeah, I was gonna 

we, we, we help people,  we help people  and you don't know what might happen. 

I mean, I had a young lady who got saved at the mission. The staff said to me, well, we told her she has to go to chapel and she doesn't want to go to chapel. And I said, well, don't make her go.  And they were like, well, that doesn't sound right. 

We're a Christian ministry. We ought to make her go. And I said, if she doesn't want to go, why don't you do, why don't you spend some time? Each one of you spend some time with her, doing what we're teaching in chapel. Why don't you love her unconditionally? Why don't you help her unconditionally? That's the only reason we're doing chapel

That's right. Yeah, that's

the first place. To try to get you to where that's inside of you. So, you know, they did that and then, you know, three days later, she says, well, why are you guys, you know, treating me so well? She was Muslim. I said, they said, well, because this is the way Jesus teaches us to be and she said, well, where can I learn more about this Jesus?

And they said, in chapel. She said, well, I'd love to come.

Amen. That's 

That's what I'm saying.

yeah, that's right. Yeah,

But if you don't start where they're at and allow them to be where they're at. It's not a relationship if I walk up to you and says you need to change. It is a relationship when I say, hey, how are you? How does that feel? 

What you just went through, how does that feel? How does it feel to be out there on the streets? I tell our staff all the time, you don't need to have been out there, but why can't you be honest and sit with the person and say, Hey, tell me more, tell me something about your story and how does that feel?

How was that going through that? You know, you're building a connection because you're practicing curiosity.

yeah,  that's right. No, I love that. Like you said, we have to take anyone as they are like, you know, and, and, and love them and disciple them. And God is going to do the work in their lives. Let him use us as a tool in that process. But we come and love 

The spirit, yeah,

the spirit has something to work with if we give  them, if we give him something to work with, it's a lot more, you know, and we're now participating

in a process that God was already up to. Yeah, God was already up to it. He was just wanting us to come in and put the finishing touches on it,

you know. 



Hey, Leonard, I have a question about, uh, your advice to a first time leader. Let's say you're sitting down over coffee with someone, whether they're leading in a non profit or a, you know, for profit business, and they come to you and say, I have my first team of people I get to lead. What advice, and we talked about it a little bit earlier when I asked you about some things you struggled with, but what specific advice might you give to a first time leader?



Yeah, I think one of the biggest things I would say, and I've been coining this and I told my wife that I was going to get t shirts and actually, you know, uh, put this on t shirts and, um, I say this to Michael, who you've had on your shirt before. I say it to him all the time. It's not, it's not about you, boo.  It's about the people that you're leading. 

And I think the quicker you realize that it's not about you, The better you're gonna come out of the gate, you know, I wish someone had told me that early on. It's not about know, it's not about what you can get done because I mean I was trying to get it done But I was trying to get it done for God, you know what I'm saying?

But it was it was it was all being filtered through me and I would say to a young person especially when a person Coming out in leadership, you're accountable to a board or you're accountable to a CEO or you're accountable to whoever it is that you're accountable to. People feel so much pressure on themselves and they've already gone and spent all this money getting an education and, you know, spent all of this money possibly in grad school and all these other things.

It's kind of hard to think it ain't about you. Okay, and then you come into a situation and now you got this pressure on you.  to   more than you actually know. So, people sit in meetings and act like they know what they're talking about when in fact they really don't know what they're talking about.

And I used to say to people all the time that I don't know is not a bad thing. 

You know, if we all say we don't know, then the possibility of knowing is possible. Well, we have to start there, but if you, now  you're coming out of the gate, you're young, you  to fit in. You    to be the person that participates when the group has an idea, because that's how we judge people, you know, well, do they participate?

Do they have something to say? Do they add, do they contribute? I think our system is backwards and I think we have to be comfortable with saying, you know what, we don't know, but you know what, we want to try to learn  

We want to try to find out. And that's what I would say to a new person.

Be more focused on learning  than knowing.

Yeah. And you know what that ties right into what you were saying to about approaching someone who's homeless or, you know, come out of addiction, right? You said what it's at curiosity and it's going, putting, putting your, your own mindset, your own, whatever you aside to learn about them. And when I was just thinking yesterday, I don't know why I was driving.

And I was thinking about this, that the leaders in my life over the years. Who have had the biggest impact on me as mentors and just influencers. When we got together and they always asked me about how I'm doing and what's going on in my life. And I think as leaders, we got to be okay with people. Ain't going to ask you that they, that's what they want you to do.

They want you to ask them what's going 

yeah, 

life going? What can I do to serve you? How can I help you? And when you think, yeah, when you 

think about people who have done that to you. And how much  influence they gain with you or how much it shows that they care and the impact that they have 

Yeah, yeah, 

that's key man.

That's key. So and that's what we see I mean christ came 

 king of the universe and put his crown aside and came and walked this dirty earth For us he did, you know he put he put himself aside and his rights aside to come and And sacrifice and live a life of perfection for us and be nailed on the cross for us.

He's the perfect example of that Mm



yeah, and he knew everything and at the same time he kept asking questions, he asked the woman at the well, where is your husband?

Yeah, he knew.

you should have asked me for water. I could give you water that you wouldn't have to come to this well

again. 

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? And, and, uh, and I think even in leading in a church, it's the same way.

We need to be asking the congregants,   

How are you?

Yeah,

You know, cause everybody goes through stuff.

How are you? 

Yeah. 

we should never stop with that. And we shouldn't be creating programs and doing all these kinds of things. If we've not asked those people those questions and build those relationships, that's where we get into trouble.

And now we're, we're, uh, or we're, we're an organization that has tremendous programs, but little impact.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not, yeah, we don't go deep in the relationship, you know, and being, being in each other's lives and being there.     Oh, that's good. Hey, one of the last things we always do before we wrap up is talk about where people can get ahold of you. But I will also But I will also another question I want to ask you,  what do you hope your legacy will be when the Lord calls you out of, out of work and out of, you know, full time work?

What do you, what do you hope, you know, That legacy people remember you by.



Well, for people, you know, I, I hope that people, you know, have been impacted. Not just by, well, definitely, you know, I hope they've been impacted in thought provoking ways in ways that may have caused them to consider, their decisions and where they're at on their road. And I hope I've impacted that in some kind of way.

I also hope That I've challenged, you know, people in, in ways too, because I think that's part of what we do. You know, we want to impact people, but we also want to challenge paradigms that they might be carrying, And I, and I hope that, that that's the way that people think of me. And then I, I guess the biggest, the biggest thing is I hope that, uh, and I've had some times in my life where I've actually heard this, but I hope that people have heard the voice of God at some point,

you know, uh, in my ministry to them, whether it's in a one on one conversation or whether it's in a.

A team, you know, uh, devotional leadership thing that I've done with teams across the organization or whether it's in a chapel setting or whether it's in a sermon that I've preached at a church or, you know, whether it's in, uh, some people, kids that I've spoken to at a school, you know, I hope that they've heard God's voice because, I know that it was God.

know, who ordered the steps of my life. I know that it was God that had his hands on me, you know, all the way. And quite frankly, the only thing that I want to hear when I get there, so much impacted by people here, but what I want to hear when I get there is, Well done, thou good and know, I just want to be faithful, you know, with the time that I have left.  on the planet to impact, you know, people for God's kingdom, 

That's good. That's what, that's at the end of the day. That's really what we're striving for is that recognition by the Lord that we've honored him and served him well.  Hey, how can, uh, Leonard, how can people get ahold of you if someone wanted to reach out to you and, how could they do that?

What's the best way email, social media, like where do they check you 

Well, yeah, I would say email, you know, you can reach me at, um, Leonard McElveen at yahoo. com. I just started an organization called Pivot Paradigm. I haven't done a whole lot yet with it because I'm in the process right now of writing a  About my experience of the overdose that I had and then, um, you know, how God brought me back and, you know, how I got on this road that I'm on now.

I'm going to put a bunch of stuff in there too about my that's going to be kind of like my business card for, for doing more speaking engagements and opening doors for me to travel and speak. So that's the phase that I'm in right now. And then I also do health coaching my wife and I.

And we do that with a company called Octavia and, uh, we're, we're health coaches and we help people get their health together and, lose weight and gain more energy and get rid of, uh, core morbidities and, you know, diabetes and all that kind of stuff just to optimize their health. And I try to be, you know, the person who is the living example of that.

know, I'm really into working out and. Eating the right way and, you know, having a pretty good energy for a 69  

you don't look 69. So that's, uh, you're doing, you're doing something right on that. And you guys do that. Now in the Grand Rapids area. So if people are in that area and 

Well, we do it across, Grand Rapids, but across the country

you, you do it 

you know, we can be. We do a remote. Yeah, we do a lot of most of the things that we do. We do through zoom. So we do most of our coaching through and she and I both coach. Usually if we get a couple, I coach the guy. She coaches the so we have people, you know, from Virginia to, you know, now 

And then how, so they were interested if someone was interested in contacting you, there's a, you said you're part of a organization, like a website they could go to, to check that out.



Yeah, you could just contact me at leonardmackelveen at yahoo. com Uh, I talk about it a lot on my Facebook page and it's under Leonard Mackelveen. I do posts almost every day with something in regards to health.

good. And those your email your I'll link to your Facebook obviously LinkedIn you and I connected there so we'll put all those right in the show notes and make sure people can get ahold of you Well brother it is you've been you're in your story God's story in you and through you is super inspirational you've given a ton of wisdom both on leadership today, and I think even just as Christians walking walking out this faith that we have in Christ and some practical, I think, advice on how to look at and think about, you know, people that are different than us.

And, and that's good. And I, I really appreciate your time today, man. I think it'll be, uh, I think it'll be very inspirational to the  📍 audience. So thank you.

Well, thanks for, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

All right, brother.

And thank you for joining me again this month. As we meet and learn from another fellow leader and Christ follower. While we're off to another new year and I pray today's podcast has inspired you to lead better for the glory of Christ in 2024. I look forward to meeting you here again next month.