Jordan Raynor - Author of The Sacredness of Secular Work

In this period I interview Jordan Raynor about his newly released book, The Sacredness of Secular Work. Jordan is an author, podcaster, entrepreneur, and Elder at his local church. 

Through his bestselling books (The Creator in You, Redeeming Your Time, Master of One, and Called to Create), the Mere Christians podcast, and his weekly devotionals, Jordan has helped millions of Christians in every country on earth connect the gospel to their work. 

In addition to his writing, Jordan serves as the Executive Chairman of Threshold 360, a venture-backed tech startup which Jordan previously ran as CEO following a string of successful ventures of his own. 

Jordan has twice been selected as a Google Fellow and served in The White House under President George W. Bush. A sixth-generation Floridian, Jordan lives in Tampa with his wife and their three young daughters. The Raynors are proud members of The Church at Odessa.

Transcript

  📍 Welcome to the biblical leadership at work podcast. I am your host, Jason Woodard. On this much show you will meet Jordan Rainer, podcaster, speaker, and author.  Jordan's brand new book entitled. The sacredness of secular work was just released yesterday.  I had a chance to read an early release copy, and I am very excited about the fresh insights that Jordan brings to the table.

You'll hear just a bit about it in today's podcast. Jordan discusses the doctrine of the first commission and it's important and it's shameful, neglect by too many believers. 



From Genesis one to Revelation 22, we see good news for the quote unquote spiritual world of souls and the material world of this earth. And if the Gospel's good news for all of that, then our work with this material world matters deeply.  To God.  

We also discuss why the work that all believers are in the midst of doing. Is sacred.



And so the only thing you need to do, listener. To instantly make your secular workplace sacred is walk through the front door or log onto Zoom. That's it. And simply by the creator guide being in you and working through you, as you do that work in accordance with his commands. That work, whatever it is, instantly sacred. 

Jordan. And I also talk about a topic that I think is of utmost importance to all workplace believers. And that is the absolute prerequisite for us to work with excellence before we can ever have a valid opportunity to share our fate. 

great work attracts the loss like honey attracts bees, right? You, you, you want opportunities  to build relationships and make disciples of Jesus Christ at the workplace. To quote Steve Martin be so good, they can't ignore you. Mediocrity is winsome to nobody. 

And Jordan and I discussed several other important topics that are covered in the book. 

So now let's meet Jordan and learn about this new book, the sacredness of secular work. 📍  

 Okay. Well, Jordan Rainer, I am so excited to be here talking to you today about this, uh, really important new book. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to have you on my show and talk to the audience here about, uh, about this book that's just came out. And,  I'd like for you to start by telling us a little bit about who you are.

Before we get into the book, can you tell us a little bit about ? Um, just your professional background and your, your, your background and your faith and your walk with the lawyer, just so people kind of know who we're talking to here. 

yeah, absolutely. Jason. It, it is so fun to be with Uh, it's an honor to be here. Yeah. So, hey, my name is Jordan Rainer. I live in Tampa, Florida with my wife Cara, and our three young daughters. We have a nine year old, a seven year old, and an almost four year old. And professionally, uh, I've spent most of my career as a tech entrepreneur.

I started and sold a couple of different software startups, uh, but today I spend most of my time creating content.  That helps Christians see how their work matters for eternity. And you know, Jason, when whenever I tell somebody  that their job as a manager  or a warehouse worker or an entrepreneur or barista matters for eternity,  the most typical response I get is, oh yeah, amen.

My, my, my job is my mission field. And I'm like, yes, of course. That is gloriously true.  Man, if that's the only way that our work matters for eternity, because I get to share the gospel with those I work with, then frankly, most of us are wasting most of our time. Right. You know, you, you, you have a full-time job, Jason, right. 

Like, 

play this out for a second. Like, how much time do you and I. Spend explicitly sharing the gospel with those we work with  every 30 days, 15 minutes an hour,

like be like crazy generous

say we spend three hours a month sharing the gospel. That means roughly 1% of our time matters for eternity.

I, I don't know about you may, but I find that.  Deeply depressing.

And importantly, it's deeply unbiblical. And that's why I wrote the Sacredness of Secular Work to say, yes, our work, our job is our mission field, but it's so much more than that. And when we understand what scripture has to say about the sacredness of secular work, we could see how a hundred percent of our time at work can matter for eternity, not just the 1% of the time we spend walking somebody through the Romans road. 

And so, yeah, the book is called The Sacredness of Our Secular Work, and as I said, it was, so I, I like to think of myself as somebody who's. Then on probably a 10 year journey of really seeing how my faith and my work can are integrated and  how what I do matters for God's glory.  And I will tell you, Jordan, as I read this book,  you talked about some things that I have never thought about.

And I think that one thing I will say, I'm, I'm always a bit of a skeptic when I see a new idea out there because. I always wanna make sure it's grounded in scripture, right? I mean, that to me, at the end of the day, that's all that matters. And I think that you did a really, really good job of,  in all of your, I'm gonna say your arguments, I'll call 'em your arguments or your thesis of taking us back to scripture.

And so one of the, one of the things I'm gonna kind of go in order of, of some of the, some of the concepts in your book that I wanted to talk a little bit more about, but one of the things you talked about in your book is the abridged . Gospel  versus the unabridged, you know? And I think that was foundational for this whole thesis.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Oh, I'd be happy to. Yeah, because the abridged gospel might be  the, it is easily the most common expression of the gospel we hear today. The abridged gospel is essentially this, the gospel's the good news that Jesus came to save you and me from our sins. Right, and here's the stakes of this. If that's the gospel, the full extent of the gospel,  then the great commission to quote unquote save souls.  Is the exclusive mission of your life. And if that's true, then most of us are wasting most of our time. Right?

But this is not even close to the good news that Jesus preached in all of scripture, the unabridged gospel, what Jesus called the gospel of the kingdom, and not just the gospel of individual salvation is good news for our souls. And the entire cosmos. From Genesis one to Revelation 22, we see good news for the quote unquote spiritual world of souls and the material world of this earth. And if the Gospel's good news for all of that, then our work with this material world matters deeply.  To God. So that's the essence of this argument is seeing, okay, listen.

What is the gospel that Jesus actually preached versus what we're preaching in our churches today? And it turns out that what we preach is all true. It is

absolutely true that Jesus came to save you and me from our sins, it's an abridged version of the gospel, and that un abridged understanding of the gospel assigns great value to the work that you and I are doing with this material world today.

And so that leads into another concept that you talked about was  the Great Commission and technically it in scripture was not called the Great Commission. We, we've named it that, right? Uh, 

is a manmade heading. 

tradition, 

Biblical Biblical command. Manmade

heading. Yeah. 

yes. And, and, and again, not, it's not.  I'm not taking away anything of that mandated commission that Christ gave to us, but that you talk about the first commission and that that's not something that we think about as much.

Can you talk a little bit about what, what was that first commission that we found in, in the early book of Genesis? 

Yeah, this is good. So many Christians forget that work existed prior to the fall. I'm sure your listeners get that at Biblical leadership at

We, we talk about it all 

Yeah, exactly. Work is cursed because of sin, but is not itself. The curse, work was God's first gift to humankind. This is what we see in Genesis 1 26 through 28, where God says, let us make mankind in his image. Why?  So that they may rule.  God bless them and instead of them be fruitful and increase the number, fill the earth and subdue it. This is the first commission. And listen, we talk a lot in our churches about the Great Commission as we should. The Great Commission is indeed great, but the first commission is great.

Two.  It's the only commission in all of scripture that never, ever ends, so it's probably pretty important that we understand what that text of Genesis one means.  I love the way that Wayne Gruden explained this. Wayne Gruden, the editor of the E S V Bible,  summarize the first commission this way. He said, this is a call to simply make the earth  more useful for other human beings benefit.  Enjoyment. It sounds a lot like what our listeners are doing every single day as managers and entrepreneurs and parents and accountants. Now, I'm sure some people are also listening and say, alright, well hang on a second, Jordan, great. That first commission God gave Adam, and even Genesis one. That's awesome. But after sin enters the world and Genesis three, the only thing that matters is saving souls and getting us all the heck outta here, right? No, that's not the story of scripture after the fall.  God continues to reiterate the first commission in the context of blessing. Take Genesis nine as just one example. Right after he floods the earth, no one family hop off the ark. And what does God say? God bless Noah and his sons saying to them, be fruitful and increase in number. And fill the earth and make it more useful for other human beings, benefit and enjoyment. And then when the image of the invisible God came to earth and the person of Jesus Christ, he spent the vast majority of his adult life not preaching. Making the earth

more useful for other human beings benefit and enjoyment. As a carpenter, I could go on and on and on. Here's the point.  The first commission is the only commission that God never, ever  retracts. It's what God created us to do, do in the beginning. It's what Christ redeemed us to do on the cross And spoiler alert. It's what we're gonna be doing for eternity on the new Earth. And because of that  we can be confident that our work filling the earth and subduing it and ruling it for God's glory today matters in the grand scheme of eternity.

So I want to, I want to take this a little bit further and I'm gonna quote, I'm gonna quote something in the book and it . And the point I wanna make is I think that some, I think some people have gotten to a, at least a point to where  they see many types of jobs outside of the pulpit, outside of missions as, as being As being, uh, blessed by God as being even I'll say, ordained by God, right? Like feeding the homeless, helping widows, right? Restoring, break broken relationships that work supports the church and parachurch organizations. But you, you said in the book, you see the good news of the gospel is not just that I get to go to heaven when I die, but that I get to partner with God in revealing.

Heaven on earth until I die. And I've thought a lot about, I think even lately this concept. But it was interesting. As I had shared with you a little bit before we hit record this weekend, my wife and I went out of town for a couple of days go see a concert. We got out of our city and we went and just did some, did some really fun stuff together.

And part one of the things we did is we went out to dinner at a really nice restaurant. And I sat there and I thought about the blessing. It was for us to go someplace where this level of service is extremely high. The quality of the food is extremely high, and I'm like, . These people. Now, I, you know, I don't know if all of our servers or the cooks or anyone in that restaurant are believers.

I, I gotta believe maybe somebody is. But the work that they're doing  is, I think, and we will talk a little bit about this later 'cause you hit on it later in the book. It's just this idea of it is good and it is what God has ordained people to do, to bring order out of chaos. Right. And to restore things and to make things better and more beautiful.

And as we were, we were kind of blessed by . Being served at this restaurant that was, again, just very, very high quality and service. And in the food, it just made me think a lot about that. And so whether you are, as you said, whether you're teaching or whether you are a barista, or whether you are, you know, in my field, I work in manufacturing and just doing things with excellence that God has given us that 

Command and, the blessing to be able to go and do that and spend, like we said earlier, the vast majority of our time, that's what we're doing. I mean, we talk about this at work, even people who aren't believers. When we talk about building  cultures and healthy teams, it's often said we spend more of our waking hours here than we do with our own families.

I mean, this is a huge part of our entire lives here on earth. And so I think if we, just to think about the work more broadly and to, just . Every, every job minus, you know, you, you gave qualifiers in the, in the book about Yeah, there's, if you're running a prostitution ring, I mean, there's some things that obviously we're not gonna be able to condone biblically, but it's much broader, I think, than what the Christian community thinks of when they go in to do work. and this is because of the Abridge gospel,

Yeah. 

right? Think let's try to make this like real simple. If. The totality of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Is Jesus coming to save me from my sins? Then there is no meaning in preparing a great meal for people at a restaurant, unless of course I get to share the gospel with that

Right, right.

But, but, but, but if the good news is good news for all of creation, the God has come to make all things new.  He has put human beings to work in the Great Commission and the first commission simply to make this world more useful and and enjoyable for other people.  Now, everything I do with excellence and love and in accordance with God's command is infused with the eternal purpose and meaning.

And we gotta be really careful about these terms we use, right? The It's, it's why we titled the book The Sacredness of Secular Work, that word secular. Literally means without God. But we as Christians 

believe that the Holy God is with us wherever we go through the power of the Holy Spirit. And so the only thing you need to do, listener. To instantly make your secular workplace sacred is walk through the front door or log onto Zoom. That's it. And simply by the creator guide being in you and working through you, as you do that work in accordance with his commands. That work, whatever it is,  is instantly sacred.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, excuse me.  up to and including for those of, um, for those that work from work in their homes. Right. I think about, I was, uh, blessed when my kids were growing up that, uh, my wife was able to stay home and I think about all the work that she did with them and, and there were times when she felt like I'm just  cleaning and cooking and doing laundry and what's the value of this?

And I am growing in my career and traveling and getting to do some things that the world would say were  . You know, pretty great and I was getting a lot of accolades and I remember telling her and reminding her, and I really meant this. And I still do you think about  the impact you're having on our kids and eventually our grandkids, you know, and the investment you're having on our, on our own children and our own home.

But all of that serving in the house and serving in, in creating a beautiful home, uh, for their family is, again, it's just . It's, it's sacred. It's truly sacred. It's a calling. It's a, it's, it's, it's a mission field. It's not just a mission field and that you get to share the gospel. It is what God has called you to do for his glory and for, for your benefit and blessing.

That's exactly right. And the Apostle Paul says in one Corinthians 1558 that all of that work and the Bible defines work far more broadly than we typically do today as the thing you get paid to do. Right? 

Any labor we do in the Lord, including change changing diapers.

Paul says in one Corinthians 50 58  not in  vain.  Somehow  it has an echo in the eternal kingdom of God.

So, Jordan, one of the things you put forward that is, again, something I hadn't thought about, but I gotta say you did it biblically and so I'm not gonna disagree with it. I really loved how it opened my mind. In chapter two, you put forward some ideas about eternity. And heaven that are, that are biblically supported, I think, but they're not what most believers would think about when considering our eternal home.

So for example, can you address the idea of the current earth being destroyed and you, you talk about, yeah, so I mean you again, you talk about some,  I think it's in, is it in first Peter? I think where you talk about that. So

Peter three. Yeah.

Okay. Second Peter three. So talk to us a little bit about that and then what John wrote in revelation about the new city and our place in it.

Because I, yeah, I just, I'd like for you to hit on that a little bit. 

Yeah. I think one of the biggest lies I hear the most frequently in the church today, I've heard many a pastors say it. The only two things that last for eternity are God's word and people, and everything else is gonna burn up.  This is heresy. I'll explain why in a second. But first, let, let's, let's dig into what's the source of this really, and really second Peter three 10 is really the crux of this, a very, very old translation of this passage that your Sunday school teacher probably taught you 40 years ago.

It's the King James version, right? That says, the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in which the heaven shall pass away with the great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The Earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up. End quote,  but really, really good.

New Testament scholars like NT Wright, like  Ani, like a lot of other people pointed out. That with all of the biblical manuscripts we have at our disposal today, including some of the more recent ones, some of the most accurate ones we've ever found, the, the, the, the Greek word for burned up is not in those manuscripts. Most serious New Testament scholars would argue that the King James version of this verse is really a really poor translation of the passage, which is why In more modern translations, the earth being burned up, that concept is gone. A much more accurate way of thinking about this is God using fire to  purify the earth 

rather 

than obliterate it.

Right. And by the way, the context of Second Peter three,  Peter's describing what's gonna happen at the end of this age to what happened during the days of Noah.  Right. In the days of Noah,

God used the flood waters. Not to obliterate this earth, but to destroy it in the sense that he purified it, right. He made it clean.

That's what's gonna happen at the end of this age. This earth isn't going to be destroyed like the, like the Death Star and Star Wars, right? That's like vaporize instantly, right?

I think a lot of people really believe that. That's how, 

think 

so too. Wait, and here's why this matters.  So why, okay. Why in the world does all this theology matter for our work? If the only two things that last for eternity are God's word and people and not this earth, that means two things. Number one, it means that Jesus is only a partial  winner, in Genesis one, God deemed all of creation, spiritual, and material to be very good. In Genesis three, Satan broke every part of God's good creation, spiritual material, and God promises.

In Genesis three, that a redeemer would  crush Satan's head in total indisputable victory and win back everything that was lost in Genesis three. And so I quoted this one theologian in the book as saying, if redemption does not go far as the curse of sin, then God has failed. That's why it's so heretical to say the only things that last for eternity are God's word and people to say that is to accuse Jesus of being a loser rather than Lord, but he's not the loser.

Satan is because of the resurrection. Christ rose from the grave as the indisputable king over every square inch of creation. That's the first reason why it matters so much that this earth is eternal. Here's the second reason.  Because Jesus redeems this earth. He says he's making all things new, not all new things. We can be confident that our work with this earth, our work with the spiritual and the material realms  has eternal meaning to God because he plans to carry this world. Eternity in a different state,

purified, redeemed. But it's this earth. A earth that is like new where God will dwell with us forever and ever. 

And the work that we're.  Call to do. Now, you, your, your proposition is, and I love this 'cause you, it, it's that we will continue to do that for eternity. It's in, in some extent we will do work. And you, you talked about in the book, I love and I love this, and I'm, I'm, I'm paraphrasing all over. So if I, if I say something incorrect, please correct me.

But essentially you said that for many believers that when they think of heaven, they think I'm gonna sit on a cloud playing a harp. Right or some extent of that for all of eternity. And they think that sounds a little boring, even though they have faith that God is just and good and holy, and I'm sure heaven will be beautiful and will maybe just because we can't clearly understand it, but you talk about your belief and again, you give many scriptural examples of the fact that we will be doing work and we will get joy from work and we will bless others through some sort of work.

As we are doing work to worship and glorify God into eternity. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah. Yeah. There's this, listen, and I, I talk about this in a chapter called Half-Truths About Heaven. Right. The things we believe about heaven, most of them aren't wrong, 

right? 

They're just 

incomplete? 

Yeah. 

And because they're incomplete, Satan uses these half-truths to rob us of our joy and our faithfulness, right?

Lemme just share one passage. It's one of my favorite passages in all scriptures from Isaiah 65.  Let me read a few verses. This is, uh, a little truncated from 17 through 23. Isaiah says, see, I will create new heavens and a new Earth paralleling. Revelation 21 language, right? My people will build houses and dwell in them. They'll plant vineyards and eat their fruit. No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat for as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people. Listen to this. My chosen ones will long enjoy the work

of their hands.

They will not labor  in vain friend.  God's word does not say that we will play harps  for eternity. It doesn't say that we're gonna recline in hammocks for eternity. It says that we will work and reign with Christ  for eternity. And if you love your job,  Man, the promise of that should make us ecstatic about the eternal heaven on earth. And oh, by the way, even if you hate your job, this promise should make you ecstatic.

Because there's coming a day when every single one of God's chosen ones will long enjoy the work of their hands. This is work as it was always meant to be since Genesis one, right? Without the

thorns that this is of curse. It's work that's challenging, but satisfying. Difficult, but fruitful, all honey.

Yeah.

No bees. I don't know about you, but that gets me pretty excited about eternity.

Well, it gets me, I mean, just reading that and thinking about that again, just this weekend as I read through this, it got me very excited because  . I, I love my work. I, and over my career, there's been seasons when I,  although I loved it, it was very, very challenging because of sin, right? It always goes back to because of sin, and I think about what is what?

How beautiful could it be in that new heaven?  I. And new Earth, that it's work without the curse and that we will be able, how enjoyable would that be for whatever, whatever it is that you love to do. And you, you shared some examples of people who have a heart or a passion to do a certain type of work and for one reason or another they've never been able to do that for a, for full-time work.

And that maybe that seed . It's planted in their heart because that's what they will do through eternity and, and, you know, for God's glory and you know, for his, for his other believers to bless them as well. It's, it's, it's incredible to think about and very exciting for sure. 

Yeah, and I'm so glad you brought up the under abridged gospel, Jason. 'cause this is part of the reason why it matters so much when we preach the gospel of Jesus came to save us from our sins. We're essentially starting the biblical narrative in Genesis three.  And if the biblical narrative starts at Genesis three, makes no sense that we would work for eternity because we're forgetting that work existed prior to the fall. But if work existed prior to the fall,

Right. 

Yeah. 

Jesus is truly coming to make all things new. Guess what, friend. That also means he's making the world of work new. And man, I hope that fuels your hope and your faithfulness in the present listener.

Absolutely. Okay. So towards the last section of the book, you emphasize the fact that you do not want to minimize the command and blessings of evangelizing or discipling in the workplace, right? So you said in it, I, that if, if you did  minimize it, it's not on, it's not purposeful. It's only because you're trying to emphasize what's not discussed. 

so all, all the work that you did to emphasize are . Our first, uh, our first commandment, our first great commission, sorry, our first commission. You wanted to be sure not to underemphasize the great Commission, but then you give, you gave practical steps, several practical steps on how to be proactive  at making disciples in the workplace. And I, I love the idea of the one you said of being so good. That they can't ignore you, and we don't have time to cover all of the practical steps, so people have to get the book and read it because they're, they're excellent, practical steps that I've taken myself and seen fruit from it. But, Jordan, can you talk about this idea, and I've heard you talk about it on your podcast before

being so good that they can't ignore you because I, I think sometimes that, that that's lost on workplace believers.

Oh man. I think it's massively lost on workplace believers. You know why? Because we think the only thing that matters is saving souls and

the job itself doesn't matter. Well, 

guess As we get really good at the first commission, you have a lot more opportunities to get great at the Great Commission. I. You know why? Because great work attracts the loss like honey attracts bees, right? You, you, you want opportunities  to build relationships and make disciples of Jesus Christ at the workplace. To quote Steve Martin be so good, they can't ignore you. Mediocrity is winsome to nobody.  Mastery is what, in the words of Paul and and Second Corinthians,  wins the respect.  Outside, sorry,  that's First Thessalonians chapter four. He said, we should mind our own business and work with our hands, just as we told you why, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders, and in this cultural moment, love it or hate it. What wins? The respect of outsiders is being so good they can't ignore you.

And as you do that, man, you're gonna have loads of opportunities to share the reason for your excellence, and ultimately the reason for your hope that is found in Christ alone.

Yeah. You, and I've said before, it's a, it's a ticket to play the game. If as a workplace believer, if you are not doing your job with excellence, whatever that job is and whatever level the organization you're at, you could be entry level, you could be the c e o, but if you are not doing it with.  Excellence.

And with 110%, I'll use that, that, uh, cliche,  I don't, you don't have the respect, you don't have the respect of people, you don't have the credibility to even talk to them about your faith. And unfortunately, I've worked a few occasions with believers who  I. Did not work well, did not have good attitudes at work, and they just, they weren't listened to, nobody listened to 'em, they didn't have any credibility.

And so  that's just so important, I think, for people to understand that. And again, there's other, you give multiple other practical tips and steps to, to, uh, work your way into a discipleship conversation. Something else that you said in the book, and I've heard you say on your podcast,  is that we should look for ways to take conversations from superficial to serious  to spiritual. 

Yeah, and I have seen this work in my life over the years, but I never, I never could quantify it or I never put words to it like that. So I really, the first time I heard you say that, I remember where I was driving, even in my car listening to the podcast, I'm like, that's, that's brilliant. Let's talk, let's talk a little bit more about that and how we can do that in the 

Yeah. Oh yeah. That's one of my favorite topics. Yeah. Our, listen, our conversations with non-believers, whether it's at work or outside of work, tend to be really superficial. Right. But by God's grace, I, you know, I found that Just a little bit of intentionality, not a lot, a little bit.  It's pretty easy to steer those conversations from the surface to the serious, to the spiritual, right?

My favorite tool for doing this  is what I call my list of launchers. Okay? It's a really simple Google doc.  I just have a list of names of people that I am intentionally trying to share the gospel with, and next to each of those names is the list of topics to bring up the next time I see that person to move the conversation with the service, to the series, to the spiritual.

So I'll give you an example. I'm changing this person's name to protect the innocent, but uh, my buddy Brian, Is elapsed Catholic, right? Uh, we're recording this. Um, we're recording this close to Christmas, right? So for Brian, on my list of launches right now, it says, Hey, what are your kids' favorite Christmas traditions? And then my next question's gonna be, Hey, did you grow up?  Going to Christmas Eve, mass. I know he is a lapsed Catholic, right? And the next question is, would you guys wanna come to church with Kara and me and the kids on Christmas Eve? Surface, serious spiritual surface is what are your kids' favorite traditions, right?

That's pretty surface level. You're not asking for a lot from somebody. Little bit serious, Hey, did you grow up going to mass? And then spiritual, Hey, you wanna come. 

With me and family to church on Christmas Eve because we're going isn't. This is a super, super simple tool to build listener. Three steps.

Step one, choose a place where you wanna keep your list of launchers. This could be a physical journal, it could be a note on your phone, a Google doc. Wherever. Step two, make a list of people you wanna be intentional about sharing the gospel with at work. And then finally, step three, just next to each person's name, list a few questions or topics or book recommend, whatever 

will help Slowly lead that conversation.

From the surface to the series to the Spiritual is a game, game-changing tool that will take you five minutes to build, and by God's grace, make you a disciple-making machine.

A couple of years ago, maybe it's been three or four, you know how time flies, but our pastor did a series, uh, called Choose Your One, and it was very evangelical focused and has challenged two. Uh, the congregation was to choose that one person and you know, it could be in your family, in the workplace  that 

You're gonna spend a, a lot of time in prayer about,  and look for those opportunities to share the gospel, to invite them to church, and to have those types of conversation. I'm, I want to, I wanna share my story about this because it was, it's so encouraging. And also, and you talk about this in the book, it, I had also an experience where somebody said, no thanks, and you know, that's all right.

I planted the seed, but I had, so I'm an overachiever. And so I had two. Two, choose my There was two, there was two guys that I worked with at the plant that I was managing at the time that I just instantly felt  it was clear that's who the Lord would have me to talk to.  And so the one, so I prayed, I mean this was course of weeks and weeks and weeks, and so I prayed.

I had a pretty good relationship. I already with these guys, but I purposely started taking the conversations from superficial to serious to spiritual. And the the one gentleman, , Uh, well, in the end, I, I invited him both to my church and the one gentleman, he and I, he and I sat over lunch one day and I just asked him, I was like, did your family, did you and your family ever think about, you know, like getting plugged into a church and joining a church?

And Jordan, he was instantly without hesitation, he goes, yes, we've talking about that.

that's exactly, we had been talking about that. Well, long story short, and I think I shared this when I had, when I was on your podcast.  . Long story short, he and his wife and their teenage son all started coming to our church, professed faith in Christ, were baptized.

And I cried like a baby. And I don't do that very often. I mean, when my children got baptized, but when I, anyways, they came, they got baptized and they're growing in their faith. And what a, what an incredible. Honor to have been a part of that.  The, and they're still, they're still faithfully attending and growing and it's just been beautiful.

The other gentleman, when, I remember when I started talking to him and about church and told him where I went to church and he was like,  I grew up going to that church. I literally grew up as he, you know, he's in his forties now and I'm like, I'm sitting there thinking this is gonna be another slam dunk.

This is gonna be another one. He never came. He was like, nah, you know, no thanks. My grandma used to take me and just not interested. And so, and you talk about that in your book, that just because we don't see,  I don't wanna say the fruit there is fruit. We just, you know, we're planting the seeds and we're watering the seeds as, as, uh, as Paul wrote about.

Right. That that's, that's our role and not . Not the harvest. That's the Lord's

That's exactly right and we, we live at a time where we wanna see instantaneous results in everything including evangelism. We wanna microwave people into belief in Jesus Christ.  It's not how this

happens, right? Judge, every day, not by the harvest, you reap, but by the plants. By, but by the seeds that you plant, right? And oh, by the way,  Going back to what we started this conversation with,  it is when the church is most fully engaged at the first commission, that we're gonna be the most effective at the Great

Commission, right? Because when you understand that a hundred percent of your time matters to God, not just when you're sharing the gospel, but

Everything, every Zoom meeting you lead, every Uber you drive, every spreadsheet you build. When you understand that all of that can be worship and an ingredient to God's eternal happiness, you are fully alive. Right? And that's what lost people are looking for people who are fully alive. So my hope is in this book that readers will be encouraged.  All of their time matters for eternity, not just their

explicit acts evangelism and that that would make them come fully alive and give them even more opportunities to explicitly share the hope that we have in Christ.

No, that's, that, that's absolutely true. And there's one more thing, there's one more topic that I want to ask you about before we wrap up, and then we'll talk about,  um, anything you wanna bring up. We'll definitely, you know, make sure we got links in the podcast to the, to the book as well as your website.

'cause I know you have a lot, you've written other books. Um, master of One was one that I  read and really was, uh, very helpful to me, but . So we'll, we'll make sure when people have, uh, links to those resources. The other thing that I wanna talk about though, is something that I've struggled with and I'm, I gotta believe that many believers struggle with, is this idea of I'm being paid to do a job and wherever I'm going, right?

So, so I, me, I'm personally, I am, I'm a manager of people, and so I am paid by my employer to go effectively manage an operation and people, and to do that well. As you, and you said this in your book, my job description does not say evangelize. Proselytize. Right. Not in the job description. 

And so  for those of us that walk into a secular workplace every day and are trying to be faithful, good stewards to our employers and do our jobs well and not distract from that, and, and I think even, especially for those of us in leadership be  we, I think need to be 

Uh, at least sensitive to the fact that I never want  somebody on my team to think, oh, the boss is trying to, you know, use his influence to share the gospel with me, get me to come to his church or anything like that. I mean, I, that, me would, I would never want that. And so can you talk a little bit about how do we walk into that situation?

Mindful of that, and careful of that? 

Man, this is so good. I'm so glad you brought this up, Jason. Uh, and listen, this is highly contextual, right? Everyone's in a slightly different working situation than the next person, but  it's pretty easy to make an argument that sharing the gospel with a coworker during normal business hours is stealing from your employer.  Right.

Which go, go read, go read the book of Titus, especially Titus two. Yeah. Nothing's gonna thwart your witness more. And so I think where that leaves us is okay, we, we understand that, but we also understand that the Great Commission is a non-optional command for every follower of Jesus. I think that leaves us in a place of just being need, needing to be really prayerful. About when and where  we share the gospel with our words rather than our actions. And for me, what that's looked like most of the time, even though I've always been an entrepreneur and been the boss, is not sharing it on work time, uh, but  sacrificing my own personal calendar. After work to grab a beer with somebody or grab a coffee with somebody early in the morning

to have those more explicit conversations. Whatever works for you works. And, and again, everyone's situation is a little bit different, so I hate to be prescriptive here, but we do need to be

mindful of the fact that  we, it is, it is never okay to sin in order to obey some other command.  Scripture. right?

That's just off the table for believers. And so we're called to serve our employers through employers, through the Ministry of Excellence, and we're called to share the gospel boldly with those that we work with.  You gotta be wise about discerning how and when and exactly how you're gonna be doing that.

Yeah. 

Yeah. And I, I, you're right, you can't be, uh, prescriptive in this matter, and it takes a lot of prayer. And I will tell you that in my experience, it's been pretty obvious to me where those opportunities have opened. I think it's just, I felt like it's been clear in times when I've maybe taken a step in that direction and that person's not interested. 

That's fine. That's clear to me as well, and I'm gonna keep loving them and working with them to grow in their career and be a friend. That's one of the things you talked about in your book, right? Just be a friend. And pray for them. And  I think that as we, um, yeah, I think as we, as we pray about that and seek wisdom from other people, that, that, uh, we'll, we will get the discernment that's needed in that.

So, 

That's exactly right. 

Well, Jordan, where can people reach out to you? Where can they connect and learn more about you and the resources that, uh, that you have to offer?

Yeah, we got lots of resources@jordanrainer.com, j o r d A n R A Y N o r.com, including a link to this book where you can find wherever books are sold. It's called The Sacredness of Secular Work.  Four Ways Your Job Matters for Eternity, even when you're not sharing the Gospel. 

I have a question. If I buy a ton of these books, do I get a discount? 'cause man, I seriously am planning to buy this for like 

Oh man, I, keep hearing, we keep hearing that. I love that question. Oh yeah. Shoot me an email atJordan@jordanranger.com and we'll find a way to get you some bulk discounts For sure.

I'm, I'm gonna buy a bunch of 'em and just put 'em on the table at church. No, I think it's, it is for those listening to the show, I'm not just saying it because, uh, Jordan and I are friends and, um, you know, I, I wanted to get him on here and talk about his book. I literally just read it over the last four days and I'm so excited. 

I, and I find my, I think of myself as somebody who already sees in many ways how God uses my work. To glorify him, to bless me, to bless others.  But this book helped me to see even more and get more excited about that. So Jordan, thank you for being obedient to what God has called you to do. You said in the book that you almost didn't write it because you did not want to, uh, give the impression that you are, uh, deemphasizing the great commission.

And I think you did a really, really good job of not doing that. And again, the whole last part of it is about how to  . How to follow the great commission in the workplace, but there's so much content in that book. This just helps us see how God will use our work.

Well, and Jason, I'm grateful for you saying that, you know, in an audience like this, a biblical leadership at work, I, I think it could be easy to look at these books, be like, oh, this has been said, uh, to the best of my knowledge, a lot of this ground that I'm covering, the vast majority of the ground I'm covering, this book hasn't been explored in this way about what the Abridge gospel means for our work.

What these half truths about heaven being for our work, the origins of this term great commission, which By the way, is brand  spanking new in church history? So there's a lot of new grounded traverse here, all with the goal listener of helping you see how a hundred percent of your time at work matters for eternity, not just that 1%, or let's face it less than 1%

that's 

you're explicitly sharing the gospel.

So I pray it's a massive encouragement to you.

Well, I think it will be. I really do. So thank you for writing it and thank you for coming on today and being, uh, being a guest here and sharing with our audience.

All 

pleasure. 

bless, brother.  📍 Thank you.

And thank all of you for listening. And again, this month. I really do think this book will have an enormously positive impact on how you do and view your work. And so I hope you will go out and get a copy and see for yourself. I have already bought a bunch and I cannot wait to give them out.

And I hope that you will join me again next month. 

As we meet another workplace leader, striving to honor Christ and their work.