Grant Blair Interview

On this month's podcast, we meet Grant Blair who has nearly 30 years of leadership experience. He has a unique combination of experience in a corporate setting, manufacturing, and nearly 15 years at an Executive level in a global Missions Organization; Operation Mobilization.  Listen as Grant shares his amazing testimony and his thoughts on leadership and operational excellence. 

Grant has been married for 26 years to Gail. They have 7 children and 2 grandchildren and reside in Peachtree City Georgia. 

Transcript

Jason: 0:00

welcome to the biblical leadership at work podcast. I'm your host, Jason Woodard. Today we'll be meeting grant Blair. A devoted husband, father and grandfather to two. Ian, his wife, Gail had been very active in church ministries over the last 25 years. But listen in. As grant shares his testimony of how God radically changed him as a young adult.

Grant: 0:20

And he just completely and radically changed my whole life.

Jason: 0:23

Grant has been in various leadership roles spanning nearly 30 years and shares how he has learned from both good leaders. As well as poor leaders.

Grant: 0:32

but either way it gives you a model to either emulate or to completely avoid you see the impact in the workplace of the bad examples, and you also see the impact if you're blessed enough to have a good example,

Jason: 0:46

Grant has nearly 20 years of experience in the manufacturing sector. Where he became a master black belt in the six Sigma methodology and trained others around the globe in process improvement, methodologies. With that kind of background grant feels strongly about how the church should influence the world. Not only spiritually, but even operationally.

Grant: 1:05

we, the church should be the picture of excellence for the rest of the world. Not the other way around.

Jason: 1:10

In addition to his corporate experience, he has served for 15 years at an executive level with a global missions organization called operation mobilization was several years of that living in South Africa. I hope that you are as encouraged and inspired as I have been, as we get to know grant blur. Welcome to the show grant. Thanks for joining us.

Grant: 1:35

Great to be here.

Jason: 1:36

Tell us about who you are your career, and then we'll go into talk about your faith in Christ.

Grant: 1:41

I've been married to Gale for almost 26 years. And actually she led me to the Lord in 1994. And we might maybe get into that a little bit more later, but we currently live in Peachtree city, Georgia, which is about 30 minutes Southwest of Atlanta, not too far from the airport. If you know where the airport is in Atlanta and we have three kids. Our oldest is Rachel she's 21. Josiah is 19 and Abby is 17. Rachel's a sophomore. Georgia Southern university, which is here in Georgia, obviously, and just high as a freshmen at point university, which is a small Christian school near here. And Abby's a homeschooled senior here at home. So she's thinking about next steps. And also I was married for 11 years and divorced before I came to know the Lord at age 34. And so I have four older kids as well. My oldest Sheila turned 40 last year. She's married to Chris. Monique is 38. She's married to Derek and Jolene is 34 and she's still single. And Julian had a twin Benjamin who passed away in 1996. He had a severe seizure disorder and passed away when he was eight and a half. And Monique and Derrick have blessed us with two precious grandkids, Amelia and William. And they will turn three in one and about a month. And as far as like things we like to enjoy in terms of serving that sort of thing. I'm right now currently involved in two discipleship groups of men associated with our local church. In one of them, I'm a participant with our pastor and three other guys. And one of them, I lead with five other guys and in the past, Gail and I and our local churches have helped to lead the youth. We've been involved in missions, leadership committees in the church, teaching kids and adults and leading Bible studies. Interestingly despite the fact that I'm a finance guy, with some professional credentials, I have never been asked to serve on the finance committee in any church I've ever attended,

Jason: 3:36

That's interesting.

Grant: 3:37

kind of, an interesting. irony. And I've never offered either. So also in my role, I occasionally have the opportunity to preach. So I do that once in a while, probably once or twice a year. And between being in full-time vocational ministry and our church involvement, we began, I don't really find time to have too much time for other nonprofits. We kind of focus in those two areas our service with the mission organization that we serve with and just our church involvement.

Jason: 4:03

I'm interested in the the men's groups that you're involved in kind of the format there, you guys use material? When do you meet, how do you meet men's discipleship scenario of interest to me as well.

Grant: 4:13

It's been a great growth thing for me the format is just that we read through Daily devotional together. So we have assigned readings for the week and we read through them individually, and then we find a time that fits the group to meet once a week to talk about it for about, less than 75 to 90 minutes. so no more than an hour and a half. And we just we'd get together and talk. And it's just the whole idea of it really is. I guess maybe two components. The main one is just to improve our walk with the Lord, grow our walk with the Lord our daily walk with the Lord more close, and we feel like we can do that best if we're all sort of together reading the same things and then getting together and discuss it. and of course, when we get together, all sorts of personal things come out and opportunities to minister to one another. And that sort of thing, but then the second purpose of it of course, is fellowship. And just getting a Christian men together seems like a lot of men don't really have fellowship with other believing men or if they do it's sporadic and not regular.

Jason: 5:19

So you guys, you said you lead one group and then you're involved in another one that your pastor is leading that, and those are both groups from men, from your church.

Grant: 5:27

yeah. I think that was his idea. the group that I lead is a combination of a couple of guys from my church, but most of them actually don't go to my church. The one I'm in with him, it's all guys from our church, he invited me into it initially. They were trying to launch sort of a program in our church to have these grow groups. Lots of them spring up around the church. It's still really in its infancy. There's only a few of them meeting, but I think he's planning this fall to have a kickoff and, and really encourage, everyone in the church. to get involved in one, to grow in their daily walk with the Lord.

Jason: 5:59

Yeah, kind of small groups we had just kicked those off in our church as well before COVID we had I guess we had a year or two under our belt

Grant: 6:06

yeah he distinguishes between these and small groups in that small groups are more generally, for couples. And also that they're more fellowship oriented where these are more growth in your walk with the Lord oriented.

Jason: 6:19

So tell us a little about your career. You have a interesting, I think career, a major shift. That I got to kind of be a witness to and a small part of, so really interested in going back, maybe starting with your education before career and then go from there.

Grant: 6:35

So I grew up in Illinois and got my undergraduate degree in the same town that I went to junior high and high school. And my parents were involved in the university. The whole time we lived there, got a bachelor's in business with a major in accounting, and then started working immediately after I got my undergraduate degree at marathon oil company in Findlay, Ohio. Move from Illinois to Ohio. Then got my masters about five years later, after a short stint with marathon in Atlanta. Moved back to Ohio and got my MBA with a concentration in finance, at the university of Toledo. And then later in my career, which was sort of where you came into my life. I had the opportunity to get to six Sigma certifications. I don't know if people are familiar with that, but process improvement certifications. I became a black belt and then a master black belt, which meant I was teaching which is how I met you. Of course, teaching people that were learning the process improvement methodology that I had been certified in. But after marathon, I worked there for about eight years and then had the first opportunity to be a supervisor by changing companies and moving from Findlay, Ohio up to Toledo, Ohio. And worked for a global glass making company called Pilkington. I was in a variety of treasury and accounting management roles there. That's where I had the opportunity to learn the operating excellence, six Sigma methodology, and became a manager and practitioner in that and worked there for about 13 years. And then one of my mentors had moved on to another company and he offered me an opportunity to move up to Michigan, to haze limits and work in the corporate operational excellence and training sphere there. And that, Had a pretty global scope where. You and I, and some others were training around the world, literally teaching that operating excellence methodology. And then as part of the outgrowth of a short-term missions trip that Gail and I had done to India in 1999, the Lord had really put on both of our hearts to at some stage be full-time long-term vocational missionaries. And I won't tell the whole story about that right now, but we ended up joining a organization called operation mobilization in 2007. And I started there as CFO and vice president of support services, which meant I had finance, HR it and operations of our us headquarters building under my leadership. And then the Lord wasn't done with us yet after about six and a half years there we had really still had a sense that God had a place for us overseas in missions and long story short, we ended up moving from O M is here in Atlanta area. We ended up moving from here to Pretoria South Africa, where we served for almost seven years until 2020.

Jason: 9:30

So real quick on that. How old were your children when you move from the us to South Africa?

Grant: 9:37

That's a, great question. And it's actually a pretty important one. Rachel, our oldest was 12 and my leader at operation mobilization here in and we call it O M so I'll just start calling it Owen. My leader here, the head of OEM in the U S who's an Irish guy and has lived all over the world. He told me reluctantly he was trying to talk me out of going actually, but in the end, when he became resigned to. The fact that this was something the Lord had for us. He said, you really, if you're going to have an international experience, you really need to do it before your oldest kid is 13. And his reason for that was and he had his kids are a couple of years older than ours. So he had some experience and he just said, there's something that clicks in the mind of a 13 year old that they start putting down roots. And it's really difficult for them to pick up roots and move to a new place, new culture, new country, if they're more than 12. So I sort of took that to heart and it worked in pretty well with the age of our kids anyway, but so, Rachel was 12. So Josiah was about 10 and Abby was about eight.

Jason: 10:44

I think Shelley and I moved an hour away and I believe our daughter was probably about that same age. And I remember that was a big, big move. You know, so yeah, I was just curious about That transition for you guys well, for the kids, especially, but so yeah, go ahead. All right. So after you guys are in South Africa,

Grant: 11:03

Yeah. So then it came time. I really sensed when we left that the Lord had said, we'd have about five or six years in South Africa, Rachel ended up taking a gap year that all of our kids have been homeschooled their whole life until college. And Rachel ended up taking a gap year. And so we ended up being in South Africa about six and a half years, but then it was time. It was really time for Rachel to go to college. And I really felt like the Lord had said five to six years anyway. So we. Proactively intentionally moved back in 2020 and moved back to the Atlanta area where O M USA is located. And we got here about six weeks before COVID

Jason: 11:47

Yeah, perfect timing.

Grant: 11:48

I think it was, it was really God's timing. It would have been really difficult to be in South Africa during COVID. We know some people that were, and it was really difficult for them. And So now I'm serving, as associate international finance director of OAM internationally. It really means I'm the right-hand man to the global CFO. So back in finance, when we were in Africa, I was more in a role of general leadership, general management helping to lead the work. We were involved in 13 countries and mostly in Southern Africa. And so I was part of a three or four. Person leadership team that helped guide and direct the work there. And now I'm back in finance and loving it actually. It's a great fit for me at this stage of my life and career. So,

Jason: 12:33

So go back to your education just for a minute. I had a question. So you said you did your undergraduate, and if I understood correctly, did you do a masters and an MBA after you were in the workforce?

Grant: 12:44

no, sorry. That was probably unclear. I got my masters as an MBA.

Jason: 12:49

Gotcha. And then, so you were, sounded like five or so years into the workforce when you did that.

Grant: 12:55

Yeah. So after I had been at marathon for one year, they transferred me. they did that. with a lot of people back then to give them field experience. they told me from the beginning, it would be for almost exactly two years, which it was. And so I came down here to Atlanta and worked in in Oil terminal, where we receive the oil that gets loaded onto trucks and goes to the gas stations. Well, the gas and I was here for two years, and then I got transferred back to Findlay, Ohio. So now I was about three years into my career and I started, as soon as we got back, I started my MBA at the university of Toledo and it took me two years to get it.

Jason: 13:33

So career wise really around manufacturing and then missions. And I remember when you and I first I think we met in 2004 or three or four and. You had invited me after we met to go to Germany and help do some training. We had worked together a little bit. You were at their corporate office and I was at a plant. You had come down and facilitated some training for me and others. And then you had invited me for that. And we were in the Detroit airport and the terminal getting ready to go to Germany. There was a group of us, half a dozen people. And you had your laptop open and you were looking at pictures from your missions trip from I'm guessing the prior year. And we started talking and that's when I realized and like, guess we will probably realize we were believers. And I think it was then that you told me that you did those each year or pretty much each year. You and your wife and that you guys felt long-term called to the missions field. That always stuck out to me. In my eyes, a pretty successful corporate guy with a good career going. But you had your eye on something else. for Me, for someone who was pretty career ambitious and, you know, not thinking about ministry as far as full-time there. Sure. I was involved in my church even then, but that always stood out to me. I always remember that that was a really clear memory. Does that match with the, I guess you remember, as far as you guys felt called, as you were doing the part-time trips to go to full-time eventually?

Grant: 14:50

Yeah, that's pretty close. I'm sorry that you hadn't figured out that I was a believer by

Jason: 14:55

Well, I will say there was nothing that would indicate you weren't. I think we had just had some minor interactions some training certification. So probably not any in depth conversations to share the gospel in those interactions. That was the first time we talked about our faith.

Grant: 15:10

That's right. I think you and I met in about 2003. I was trying to figure it out the other day and I think that's about right. And so Gail and I had been on one trip to India in 99. Then I led a team from our church back in 2001 and 2004, I think., at that stage, I probably would have just gotten back fairly recently from the first trip that I led to India, which was 12 people I think.

Jason: 15:36

and if I recall you sought the India would be where you would go.

Grant: 15:40

Now we really did. God had to really change both of our hearts about using the skills and gifts that he had given me in the area of finance and missions. We really thought we were going to be pioneers on Probably some remote field in India. And later after the event that you described in the airport later when we got connected with M God really opened our eyes, it took some doing, but and the work of the holy spirit, but God really opened our eyes to, in fact, people challenged me grant, why wouldn't God want to use the skills and abilities that he's given you in the business and finance world to serve a mission organization. And so anyway, long story short, we have spent 15 years in missions and almost all of it. Well, all of it in administrative sort of general leadership finance type roles,

Jason: 16:27

for me, it's been really exciting to be a part of a memory when you first made that decision and you guys came over to our house and presented what you were going to be doing because OEM's philosophy. If I understand it clearly, it was for their missionaries to kind of garner that support from churches and individuals for themselves. And you and Gail came over to our house. This was oh 5 0 6 somewhere. Right. And there that you were starting to build support oh six. Yep. Are now 16 year old was one and had some pretty significant health issues, which you also were a giant help to me. And that you had experienced that with a child. And so I can remember more than one time praying together on the phone and shedding some tears over some of that anxiety. I remember you guys coming over and presenting that very clearly. So talk a little bit about your faith. You'd mentioned earlier that Your wife was a key part of leading you to Christ. So let's hear about that.

Grant: 17:18

Yeah. I'll try to keep it short. It's an amazing God's story really is. I grew up in the church. My mom was a very committed believer, not so sure about my dad. They're both deceased now, but we always went to church. I went to youth group in high school, you know, the trajectory was I'm sure in my mom's eyes, you know, really good. And that's why we with our kids never take anything for granted. But then I got involved with the wrong group of kids in high school and started making some really bad decisions. I won't get into all the details, but I like to tell what God rescued me to not from And long story short, I lived a pretty rebellious life during high school college, even during most of my first marriage. And that probably had lot to do with it failing as well. And while I was in the process of going through my divorce, I was more married the first time for 10 years. And then the divorce was kind of long, about 18 months. So it ended up being 11 years, but we were separated for a year and a half. I got an apartment where Gail lived with her sister and we had met previously at work. We were both working at Pilkington, the glass company. She had just started and she was she is a lot younger than me, 12 and a half years. And we worked in the same building and she recognized me from work, but then saw me moving into the apartment and started asking questions. You know, what's going on with this guy? I thought he was married and had a family and all this stuff. And. So people explained it to her. And so then she and her sister made it sort of their mission to befriend me. They invited me over for dinner. We started hanging out more and more and I'm sure they were probably gently sharing their faith with me. They were both pretty committed believers, although Gale was having a bit of a backslide at that time. And so we became more than good friends and started seeing each other, you know, just the two of us. And so, but me and my rebellion and her and her backsliding probably wasn't a real good calm donation for either one of us at that time. And when my divorce was final, I was really financially sort of devastated. And I asked her to move in with me, which she did. And another long story short, she eventually started having dreams about the Lord confronting her and her lifestyle. And one night after she had already decided in her heart, to move back home with her parents. She shared with me the dreams that she had been having about the Lord confronting our lifestyle, her lifestyle, and explained to me that her relationship with Jesus was more important to her than her relationship with me. And that she couldn't understand why I didn't want to have a relationship with my creator and those two statements I've never to this day forgotten obviously. It just rocked my world. I got really depressed. Like immediately I stopped sleeping. Couldn't eat and lost a lot of weight in like I'm talking like almost 10 pounds in about three days. One day, a few days later, I just finally, I was in my car driving around, driving my older kids somewhere. And I just finally came to grips with the fact that I had made a terrible mess in my life, which had really negatively affected a lot of people that I loved. And most notably my kids and the holy spirit just kept reminding me of those words that Gail had shared with me. And so the weekend after she shared that I was running in a park by myself and I just said, God, if you're real, I want you to come into my life and change it. And those words began an immediate and radical change in my life. I stopped a lot of the bad habits that I had the partying and stuff, and started going to church, went to Sunday, school tended, Bible studies and learning what it really meant to have a personal relationship with the Lord. And I think even though I had grown up in the church, I really didn't know. I mean, I had watched my moms walk with the Lord, but I really didn't know what it meant myself to have a personal relationship with the Lord. And he just completely and radically changed my whole life. People at work noticed almost immediately the difference in my countenance and my speech and stopping swearing.

Jason: 21:12

Yup.

Grant: 21:13

And now it's been an amazing journey with the Lord, which began actually 28 years ago this month. And I was a dreadful center and needed a savior and he just turned it all around.

Jason: 21:23

That's awesome. I had a similar experiences in my childhood. My dad remarried I was about in seventh grade and, In that new marriage, they wanted to bring the blended family together and make sure that we're going to church. And so from seventh to 12th grade, we were very involved in church and I heard the word preached many, many times. And similar thing though is late high school years, complete rebellion and, you know, fast forward a few years of living a very destructive life and God got ahold of me. And I think sometimes why did I miss the truth of the gospel or the real truth of his word when I was younger? Or did I not? And I just rebelled and, you know, he was gracious enough to always be there through that. So yeah, I wonder about that sometimes,

Grant: 22:06

it's amazing how patient he is with our rebellious.

Jason: 22:10

Yeah, incredibly graceful. Well, good. Thank you for sharing that. That's an amazing story and obviously really a special story between you and Gail. You know, obviously you guys love each other and you've been married for all these years, but to have grown in your faith come back to the Lord together really, and grown in your faith and have her be such a part of that confrontation. They had to take a lot of courage on her part to be ready to walk away.

Grant: 22:33

You can imagine what her parents thought about. Her being involved with a guy who's 12 and a half years older than her going through a divorce and then having gone through a divorce with four older kids, including one with special needs.

Jason: 22:47

Yeah, well, I'm sure now as parents, right. You and I probably can assume strongly that they were praying a lot for her and that the Lord would bring her the right person. And so he did, they just didn't know it at first. I'm sure. I know. I, I prayed for that for my children that you know, they had found a spouse that would help them walk with the Lord. So I'm gonna pivot a little bit leadership wise. What's your go-to motto. What's your key principle, you know, and how does that tie back into scripture when you think about leadership, and if you had to distill your thoughts on good biblical leadership down to a phrase, a sentence, a, key principle, what would that be?

Grant: 23:26

Yeah, that's a great question. Honestly, I don't think I have spent a lot of time thinking about that. Or that I really have any one specific motto or principle. There's probably a few things that are maybe a little bit related, but I hate dishonesty and hypocrisy. I mean, it drives me crazy. So maybe in the famous words of Jesus, it would be something simple. Like let your yes. Be yes. And your no be? no. Which I think comes from Matthew I think it's in the sermon on the Mount. But, I really believe in treating other people the way that you want to be treated. I think it's important to follow up and do the things that you say you're gonna do. That's kind of along with your USBs and your no, be no.

Jason: 24:05

That's one thing I wanna just stop on that just for a second, that I think young leaders sometimes, and even more mature leaders fail to understand the importance of that. Following up after you've told somebody you were going to do that. I remember as a young supervisor, having somebody who was a mentor of mine, sharing that with me, you better write that down. If you told them you were going to do whatever, could be the most simple thing. And it doesn't mean you're going to come back and tell them, yes, you're going to get what you asked for. But yeah, at least that follow through. It's a really looked at as an integrity piece because in their eyes, you said you would do something and you didn't, maybe you honestly forgot, but to them, maybe you just were lying and you know, it's an integrity piece and really could be pretty destructive to our witness.

Grant: 24:44

I try not to ever tell someone I'm going to pray for them unless I. I am planning to do it like soon,

Jason: 24:51

Yeah. Yup.

Grant: 24:52

because like you say, if you don't write it down, then you forget, and then you haven't done what you said you were going to do. And I just that's important. So

Jason: 25:00

I had a pastor one time who said don't say you're going to pray for them. If you aren't guaranteed, you're going to pray for him and be able to follow back up. There's a young lady at my plant right now who yesterday her little boy went in for surgery. So I told her Thursday, I would pray for, and I did. And I remembered too, because I want to be able to follow up with her next week and ask her how things are going and let you know and let her know I did pray for her and pray for her little boy. So yeah.

Grant: 25:23

Some other things I'm pretty impatient with lack of motivation and effort. So maybe another one would be just that principle of being productive with your time. Self-starting. Giving you all those sorts of things. I think, you know, in terms of actually teaching and mentoring, I've been blessed because most of my opportunities in the last 15 years since I've been with OEM have either been through OEM or through church. So I get to do it in overtly Christian environments. We talked about the grow groups, the discipleship groups earlier, I become absolutely convinced that the very most important thing in any believers life is their daily walk with the Lord. And so caring for that and nurturing it is, you know, be because I'm typically mentoring or I'm in relationship with other believers. We can talk about that openly. And that can take a lot of different shapes and forms. I mean, I think everybody does it. I don't always do my quiet time in the morning. For example, some people think that's really important and it is a model but sometimes I just can't and so, you know, but I try to try to do it when I can. And I've also come to the realization in our really busy production oriented culture that this daily walk with the Lord, and maybe one of the most critical and neglected aspects of even the most committed believers life. So it's one of the reasons that I feel so committed to those grow groups and being part of helping, not just other people, but myself stay in relationship with others that are going to sorta hold me accountable to that daily, quiet time and getting together to actually discuss it and grow from it as a group.

Jason: 26:55

And I'm at that place in my life trying to mentor some young men, you know, and hoping to help them not take years to understand how a critical, those daily disciplines. And their marriage and their work in their relationship to Christ and their growth and holiness.

Grant: 27:12

by the way, those grow groups, that's an acronym, which I think is pretty cool too. I think our pastor came up with it or you got it somewhere. They all four bits of that. acronym relate to the word and they are grasp it, reflect on it, own it and walk it.

Jason: 27:27

So that leads us right into another question I wanted to ask a little bit about those fundamental aspects of the faith and being in the word of being in prayer, you've shared with me Some of that before. So talk to us a little bit about your daily, weekly spiritual disciplines.

Grant: 27:42

I, you know, honestly, Jason, I don't think has been as consistent as You might have thought. I, I have struggled. I mean, It seems like I'm either really strong with it or not very strong with it and that kind of ebb and flow. And so these growth groups have been really helpful. I, I do well when I have a goal and I have other people that are sort of helping to hold me accountable. And so these growth groups have really helped me with being in the word daily and spending some time in prayer. I've probably been better actually at prayer than, than being in the word most of the time, most of my life. So like I said, we have these assigned readings and we get together once a week for about less than an hour and a half. And so that just really helps me. I'm in two of those groups, as I mentioned I'm trying to stay caught up or slightly ahead, especially in the one I'm leading of the group and thinking about discussion questions for the one I'm leading and just trying to process and the one I'm participating in. So, and then sometimes it's, you know, the other day it was like almost a hundred verses I think. So it's not just small, tiny little bits of scriptures. Sometimes it is sometimes it's four or five verses, but it just, it really helps me to have a group to be accountable for that. And as I think I might've mentioned, earlier I have been an avid runner since I was in college and I usually get out about six times a week. Usually every day, but Sunday for about a five or six mile run, which takes me about an hour. And I try to pray through most of that. Sometimes my mind wanders and I get distracted, but that is really a good time for me to pray. Sort of takes my mind off of the running and which actually I really enjoy. But

Jason: 29:23

You mentioned when we first started talking that you get a opportunity to preach a few times a year. As part of your role at church and I, and I do as well and something that I want to ask if you've had the same experience when I am preparing and I am actually a two and a half weeks, I'm going to cover in the pulpit. And so for the next several weekends, I know I will spend more time in the word and study harder than I typically do. So what's become very obvious to me is when I have those sorts of opportunities to teach a Wednesday night to preach Sunday morning or even just lead a Sunday school class, it pushes you to dig deeper and harder into the word. And so I really recommend for people that they raise their hands for those opportunities, not only to serve in the church, but for our own spiritual development. Same experience for you

Grant: 30:15

absolutely. Yeah. I mean, anytime you especially preach, but even teach something, you know, that the Bible has some pretty stern warnings for teachers about the responsibility that it is. And I take that pretty seriously too, but that aside, if you're going to do a good job, you. better know that passage pretty inside and out. Yeah you know, have some background about it and other passages that relate to it really, really know it deeply. And so we talk all the time in our grow group about how the, the leader is the one that's learning the most,

Jason: 30:48

That's right. That's right.

Grant: 30:49

because cause they're, I'm just digesting it at a different level than everybody else in the group. And

Jason: 30:55

And even when I was young man in my spiritual walk, signing up to teach Sunday school kids, Sunday school helped me to grow in the faith and grow in. Know my understanding of God's word. So again, another little pivot here. Tell me if you look back to early in your career as a leader, you said if I remember right, when you went, I think to Pilkington, you had a opportunity to lead people for the first time. What were some of the things that you struggled with then? And then what advice would you give to young leaders who might be in that same situation and how to work through that and overcome it?

Grant: 31:30

I think the thing I've struggled with the most in my whole life, not just in the work world, but in life in general too, is addressing situations where, there's going to be conflict or disagreement or stress. I mean, I, I just really struggle with head on confrontation with issues that I know ahead of time are going to Take me out of my comfort zone and into, having to rebuke someone And so what happens is I, I struggle with dealing with it head-on and it festers, and usually it gets worse. And you know, I tend to procrastinate on things like that and just hope it gets better or goes away. And I, I do think over time when you get to be, you know, 60 pluses, I am you, naturally over time, get a little bit better at recognizing it and knowing that it's just going to get worse. And so dealing with it a bit more head on, but honestly, it's, I can't say that I've turned that into a strength at this stage. It's still something I struggle with. I recognize that it's important that more than I probably did early in my career and try not to let it happen, but sometimes I just take too long.

Jason: 32:35

I can say the same thing. I remember still to this day, the first time I ever wrote somebody up as a supervisor, I was so full of anxiety and an HR leader who was a mentor of mine. You and I both know her Tracy, Peterson. She was a pretty strong, confident leader. And she helped me through that. And to her, it was no big deal. It seemed like to me, and I was sweating bullets, I would say the same thing. It's an area that I've struggled with, but less so over the years, I can remember having a lot of anxiety about it. Maybe the day before, when, you know, you have to have a really difficult conversation with somebody the next day and then 24 hours later when you're, you know, maybe at home that day after work and you've done it, you think that didn't go nearly as bad as what in my head I thought, right. I came up with all these things that this is gonna just be horrible and just an emotional event. And typically it's not. But I think that for me, at least, I had to get to a place in my career as a leader where I was either going to be willing to do it, or I shouldn't be in a leadership role. And I really. God had called me into a leadership role. And so it became really a matter of integrity for me. Even this week I had to, you know, meet with somebody in our one-to-one and have a conversation about some behavioral issues and in the end I even look back and I go, man, was I direct enough? You know, did I drive it home deep enough for this guy to understand it? But I did it because I knew, the worst thing for me would ever be to, ultimately have to let somebody go and then look at me and go, I had no idea that was a problem. You know that for me, it goes back to an integrity.

Grant: 34:04

Yeah, I think one of the things that has helped me deal with it a little bit is recognizing that if I don't deal with this, often a single individual that's causing a problem or involved in a problem. The whole team, the whole group is going to suffer. So I can motivate myself by that more than dealing with the situation itself, that if I don't deal with this, it's going to have negative implications for the whole team. And I don't want that to happen.

Jason: 34:33

You know, you'll never build a good team if you don't address the accountability issues. Cause it just festers it's the one bad apple, right? It's an old, old cliche, but it's super true. That's probably something that honestly, I would guess that a lot of leaders would say they struggle with. In fact, I can remember, and I think maybe it was Tracy that told me this it'll never get easy and that's up to, and including having to terminate and fire somebody, it never gets easy. It gets easier. But if it ever got easy, you probably shouldn't be leading people. Right. There's like, it could be a real problem there that you probably shouldn't be in charge of people's lives that, you know, you can have that kind of impact. So grant let's move on to a different question. What do you see as the biggest gap? In leadership in general right now.

Grant: 35:14

I think for me, it's humility. what's the biggest thing I'm lacking. I hope, I guess it's a little better in the lives of believers than it is in unbelievers, because that really is part of the core of what Jesus taught. But I just find that many, if not most leaders today find it really difficult to admit that they made a mistake or to apologize, you know, it's like, they don't want to show a chink in their armor. And I'm really blessed Right. now to have a senior leader, not my direct leader, but above him, who I work with a lot. And he is just absolutely excellent at this. He always acknowledges if he overlooked something or made a mistake and apologizes profusely he's just a great model for me to even at this stage of my career to be learning from So with someone like him, who isn't afraid to confess that they made a mistake and to apologize, there's just this much better environment of trust and feeling non threatened in the work environment. And plus, you know, that if you make a mistake and you need to apologize yourself, it's not going to be a big deal or seen as some sort of a weakness for a leader like that because they do it themselves all the time. And so I think, you know, that people that can't do that, that don't have the humility to recognize that we all make mistakes. They're insecure. They feel like they have to cover over things and it just, it creates a really kind of a negative environment for, does that make sense?

Jason: 36:40

Yeah, it makes total sense. It makes me think about I'm fortunate enough right now to, I have a a direct manager who has that level of humility and not only that, but it's reminded me in the last several months. Of the advantage that comes when the leader doesn't always present that they have all the answers and this leader that I work for right now, she doesn't, and she brings her team's input and they give it willingly because she asks for it. She's not coming to the table saying I have all the answers here, go execute on it. And it's that humility still. And, you know, over the years I've worked for leaders who weren't like that. They never apologize for being wrong, and they always had the answer and there was never any input from the team because it wasn't welcomed. It wasn't accepted. And not only as believers, for sure. That's a testimony issue, right? That humility is lacking. Number one, number two, as a, just a effective leader. You. You are choking, some innovation and, opportunities for finding better ways to do things.

Grant: 37:43

We've all probably had more negative examples of that. Or at least I have had more negative examples than positive ones, but either way it gives you a model to either emulate or to completely avoid because you see the impact in the workplace of the bad examples, and you also see the impact if you're blessed enough to have a good example, which I haven't had too many of, honestly, in my. Career a few, but this guy Right now is really good. And you can see the positive side very clearly, and you can see the negative side very clearly as well.

Jason: 38:15

When I was a young supervisor and the plant I worked, where you and I met, it was a couple of years before you and I met. We had a um,, really terrible plant manager. Probably, he was promoted a little bit further than he should have been, but regardless things were really bad. This guy was just horrible to work for. And I'll never forget. We had an operations manager that I worked for, who was there for a short time. And one day after we had received the, you know, the blunt of his anger in the middle of the plant floor. And I just was ready to just to quit. It was just not a good situation. And he looked at me and he said, and I'll never forget. He said, you will learn as much working for bad leaders in your career as you will from Goodwill. And this is an opportunity for you to learn what not to do. And it was in all seriousness, you know, he wasn't trying to criticize this man. He was just very mature perspective. and he was right. I learned a lot of what not to do and how it impacts people, really how it impacts people when you treat them like that. So,

Grant: 39:13

happens in life too. I mean, good parents, bad parents, good role models, bad role models. Yeah.

Jason: 39:20

I want to take a quick break from our interview and tell the audience about a product that I absolutely love. And I think some of them may benefit from it. There are a lot of different planning systems for professionals to use to help us stay focused on our goals and priorities. And about two years ago, I found one that also incorporates a spiritual aspect to it. It's called the monk manual. Each planner covers three months in a compact size. It has daily, weekly and monthly pages for setting priorities and reflecting on the prior days, weeks and months. I really recommend you check out the monk manual website. Now let's get back to it. You've worked in secular environments and now you've worked in ministry for a long time. So I'm going to throw out what I think it might be an assumption and you tell me if it's right or wrong. I think people who have never worked in ministry full time, assume that if you work in a ministry, that you are surrounded by people because it's other believers that the workplace. Honestly, perfect, but much, much better. you get to be exposed to a much better leaders. The grass is way greener. If you're working in a ministry environment people work harder, people get along better and all those boxes are taken. I'm kind of setting you up for this question. Cause I remember some of your initial experience going into ministry and I think you maybe you had some of those assumptions too.

Grant: 40:36

Yeah, I did. I had my eyes opened wide open. In fact, Gail and I sort of gently, but somewhat sarcastically. Just talk about the work environment in mission. Just to cut to the chase. I have done some support raising training, and I always tell in every session I make sure I say, please, don't be the lazy missionary that just coasts and doesn't work hard. And doesn't honor the people behind your ministry and this and that and this and that. Because I think when you get into the administrative side of missions or a Christian organization, I've heard pastors say the same thing. you see what Gail and I sort of gently and sarcastically refer to as the ugly armpit of you know, the Christian organization. And That's not to say, I would probably never go back to the corporate world. It's been. Phenomenal experience for me and my family and serving. But you do run into people that have been in ministry their whole life that have never, really well, again, we sort of call it the real world, it's it? You know, we actually hopefully live in the more real world, but in ministry, but you just run into a lot of people that are lacking motivation and really this idea that the church and para church organizations should be the, the picture of excellent. I never forget being in a catalyst conference with Andy Stanley and him saying that the church and church organization should be the picture of excellence for the world, not the other way around. But we in the church and mission organizations look at the world sometimes as art, not the world, but corporate organizations as the model of excellence. And Andy's point was, we, the church should be the picture of excellence for the rest of the world. Not the other way around.

Jason: 42:20

So it's not all sunshine and roses. So, so with that idea in mind, how do you, you specifically, how do you honor Christ in your work when you think about, doing things for his glory and his honor, and you're working for him, what are some particular things that you try to be mindful of or careful about to do that?

Grant: 42:39

so many things, lots of things. I don't think I can even probably think of them all, but you know, I, I think in short it may be a little bit cliche, but the goal is to be as Christ, like as possible. Right. Some highlights I think. And I probably mentioned most of them already, but some highlights for me would be things like treating people, right? Treating people the way that? you would want them to treat you being honest. You know, humble saying thank you and expressing appreciation a lot as, as in constantly finding opportunities to do it doing what you say you'll do, which I mentioned earlier, doing your best with excellence, which we talked about honoring the time and accomplishments of others. There's lots of them, but those are probably some of the highlights from my perspective,

Jason: 43:20

Yeah, I think probably they all tie back to some degree to humility. Right. And a lack of. It sounds like, if you think about how you honor others and treat others, and remind yourself constantly that you're working for the Lord and not for man, his scripture tells us

Grant: 43:36

Well, Jesus distilled it all down to two. Right? Love the Lord, your God, and, and treat others

Jason: 43:42

He sure did.

Grant: 43:43

the way that you, that you, would want to be treated as well. So

Jason: 43:46

So pivot over to another topic. I'm a big believer in lifelong learning the leaders anyone should be spending their lives, learning and growing obviously sanctification is that for a believer and including growing as leaders, what are some, or your favorite leadership authors or some books that you've recommended that you've read and you would recommend.

Grant: 44:07

Right. Well of course, and we talk about this in our growth groups, the Bible being the most important one by far, but I, I'm not a voracious reader. Like some people are I don't read a lot of books, but Visioneering written by Andy Stanley was one that I read many years ago when God first put on Gail's in my heart, the idea of being in missions and stepping away from the corporate world and climbing the corporate ladder. I taught a Sunday school adult discipleship class on that book. And it had a pretty interesting impact on some other people in that group, as well as me. So that was one that was probably the most influential in my life,

Jason: 44:48

Visioneering right, is what it was titled by Andy steel.

Grant: 44:51

it's called visioneering by Andy Stanley. It's an old book. I probably read it in the early two thousands or even late nineties. And he had written it about that time. The purpose driven church by Rick Warren was one that I got a lot out of. And of course he wrote the purpose driven life, which I don't think I ever read, but I heard a lot about probably maybe the last one I would mention is the book I haven't actually read, but I, I keep meaning to, I have it. I have it downloaded. It's a book called multiplied by Francis Chan has the idea I'm told and it's been recommended to me so highly by a few people. It's probably the next book I'll read. And the premise of it, as I understand is on how actually it's a bit testimonial about how God called Francis Chan away from his whatever 15,000 person church into direct discipleship. Well, I think 10 or 12. People a year with the idea that then they would go start discipleship groups. And it's kind of the concept that we're using in our grow groups. Although I haven't read the book and I don't know that anybody involved in our groups has either, but it's this idea that we multiply the church most when we're in intimate discipleship with a few other believers and then sort of equip them to go do the same thing. And then the other one that did have a huge impact was radical by David Platt, it's also maybe a bit testimonial. we studied it as a whole team when I was at M USA. It's a missions book and it's kind of about how God showed David. I think he talks over and over. Or at least in the sermons, I've heard him preach on video about the absolute deprivation of his own heart and how we in America get caught up in our comforts and just ignore the rest of the world and the great commission. And a really challenging book. Oh, and there's there is another one too. The spiritual man by Watchman nee probably has had the most impact of any book in my, my day to day walk with the Lord. It's 738 pages.

Jason: 46:52

That's a big book.

Grant: 46:53

It's very incredibly deep theology. You probably shouldn't try it alone. Gail and I ran a Bible study out of our house in South Africa for two years and only got two thirds of the way through the book.

Jason: 47:05

Is he a modern author

Grant: 47:06

Now he was a Chinese guy that was persecuted in China, I think in the, either the late 18 hundreds or early 19 hundreds.

Jason: 47:14

okay. So it's classic.

Grant: 47:16

Yeah. I think it's out of print. I think you can get it. You can download it free on PDF now. I don't think it's even printed anymore.

Jason: 47:23

The spiritual man.

Grant: 47:24

Yeah, it's a great book though. It's long and deep. I mean, in fact, the way that we got started as my friend came to me and said I'm really not feeling much. Like I'm getting fed from our church, which Gail and I thought was a great church. So we started this Bible study because he had read this book and got stuck because he couldn't understand it. And so he and I started this Bible study together in our house. And like I said, we ran it for a couple of years and only got two thirds of the way through the book as a group. But it had a phenomenal impact The whole premise of the book is the three parts of our person, body, soul, and spirit. and then he just unpacks using scripture, unpacks it from there. And it's amazing how many times scripture talks about those three components of our being?

Jason: 48:08

I have in the last several years. Found for myself, some of the classic, authors of I'd be the 19th century. Maybe even some earlier one, some of the Puritans and it's been incredible. You know, to go back to your comment earlier, I think sometimes the American church makes maybe the assumption, or maybe we just have this bias. It's like the church just started after the American revolution. Right. But there's so much history. And that God's done around the world for 2000 years. And obviously even before, but yeah, there's some really, really good material by some men who have been dead and gone for a century or two or three that that we can tap into. And it's deep, it's not typically a superficial light rating. It's things that, it's going to challenge you with some pretty deep thoughts.

Grant: 48:53

I think Watchman nee was, if I remember right, he was eventually martyred for his faith. the guy that wrote the spiritual man,

Jason: 48:59

I appreciate the recommendation. It's always important to hear from other believers and leaders on what's impacted them. If you were sitting down with somebody who is a first time leader maybe the first time supervisor, what tips would you give them as they start their leadership journey?

Grant: 49:15

You know, one of them is, treat everyone with the same level of dignity and respect, regardless of, their role in the organization, from the president down to the, the janitor you know, treat others the way you'd like to be treated, give credit where credit is due. Nothing drives me crazier than to work on a big project and then see a boss going into a meeting and take credit for the work. Like they did it themselves.

Jason: 49:37

I think as leaders, when something goes, well, we point to the team and when something doesn't go well, we got to look in the mirror. I think that's important.

Grant: 49:44

yeah, I was going to say almost the same thing. When, when things go poorly shoulder the blame, when things go well, give the team the credit.

Jason: 49:52

That's right.

Grant: 49:52

But you know, it's always been important to me to give credit to those people that did the work. Even if I am the one, the leaders, which I sometimes have been in, in the meeting with the senior execs presenting it always let them know who actually did the work. When you find team members doing things well, recognize them for it. Preferably as close to the time that you catch them doing it right. as possible. Write frequent personal notes of thanks and appreciation that I, I think that's almost a lost art now of writing a personal note and people really appreciate that.

Jason: 50:22

Yeah. It's been a long time since I've, since I've done that or seen somebody do it and you're right. It's pretty impactful.

Grant: 50:27

We talked about it earlier, but you know, admitting your mistakes when you make them apologizing, if you need to, if the situation calls for it I wouldn't be a Good. op ex guy, if I didn't say strive for excellence your team usually will as well, if you model that well. And maybe lastly don't ask your team members to do anything that you wouldn't be willing to do yourself or haven't done,

Jason: 50:47

that's right. so final question before we wrap up, when you know, you're probably closer to retirement in the yard of the start of your career

Grant: 50:54

For sure. And close closer to death than birth as well.

Jason: 50:58

it's true. And when you do retire from full-time professional work I don't think as Christians, we ever retire from. Serving the church and serving the Lord. But when you retire from your full-time work what do you hope people that you have worked with over the decades would have remembered about you and your work with them?

Grant: 51:18

Yeah. That's another great question for me, you know that as you imply, that may not be too many more years, but at the same time we don't have any time frame. I mean, I don't expect to step away anytime soon, especially with two kids in college at the moment, but, um,

Jason: 51:33

I'm sure.

Grant: 51:34

It is you know, Jason, I think when you hit 60, there's something about which I did a couple of years ago. You suddenly start thinking about, and reflecting on questions like this, and unlike a couple of your other questions, I think I have actually spent some time thinking about questions that are at least similar to this one. I think it's a good one for not just people from a work perspective, but in life to think about, what is the legacy? What, if anything, are people gonna remember me for? And is it good or is it bad? And you can go all sorts of directions with that. But for me my workplace for the last 15 years has been a global mission organization, obviously. And so I hope that's why I said what I did earlier about you realizing I was a believer in the airport. I hope people will have, first of all, seen Jesus. In some way reflected in me and my life. I hope they will think that by God's grace, I have left the workplace and my impact on their lives better than when I started. I hope at least most of them will think when they think back on it, that they've enjoyed working under my leadership and that they maybe grew as a person, maybe even as a follower of Jesus while we were working together. And I suppose, lastly, I hope that I will have given God most of the glory and not taken too much of it from him, for myself.

Jason: 52:58

Yeah, in the end, that's the key thing that we honor him in our work and point everything back to him. I will say my memories of working with you in the professional side. Will always be very memorable. They were a key times in my career when I was starting to grow as a leader and grow in the technical aspects of process improvement. And I'm very, very glad that God put our paths together all those years ago and that he's kept them together. Since then his or her families have stayed connected. And we've been able to be a really small part of the support that you guys have for being out on the field.

Grant: 53:30

That's very kind of you to say. I, I don't think there could be any greater legacy if I can use that word, then having people that you. You know, cross paths with, for considerable parts of your life. There couldn't be any greater legacy than you know, even after you're dead and gone or out of the workplace or whatever, couldn't be any greater legacy than them. Following earnestly after Jesus. And I certainly see that in your life as well.

Jason: 53:58

Well, I'm glad to hear that. Like you said earlier, there's certainly times when I'm not as disciplined and chasing after him with the kind of vigor really probably ever, but certainly times when it's a less so than it should be, or could be, and has been at times it's up and down a little bit in those daily disciplines in that passion for him.

Grant: 54:17

So it's a lifelong

Jason: 54:18

yeah, his grace covers those times. So. Well, thank you for taking this time today. I will also say that you and your family are in my prayers. I know my family is in yours and each of your children are on my prayer list and I pray for them. Your adult children, your grandchildren, you and your wife on a regular basis as I worked through my prayer list. So definitely we'll continue to lift you up in prayer and praise God for what he's done through you. Professionally, as well as a dad and a husband, and now a grandpa, which is a pretty cool thing. First-time grandpa now for three years as well. So appreciate your time today. Thank you for joining us.

Grant: 54:54

Thank you for the opportunity. I really appreciate it.

Jason: 54:56

And thank you to our audience for joining us again today for our interview with grant Blair, please like, and subscribe to the podcast. So that. You will be notified of the next interview when it comes out. Next month.